prices getting a little nuts?

[Vocenoctum]

The problem with the whole 'prices are getting too high' argument is that gamers tend to compare everything to the core books when they were first released at $19.99. I cannot begin to say how many times I've heard, "Well, if the core books were hardcover and only cost $20, then there is no reason why this 96 page softcover can't be cheaper than that." In a nutshell, most gamers do not (nor have a desire to) understand the economics of publishing and what it really costs the publisher to produce that book. In a nutshell, other publishers cannot price a book at $19.99 and expect to make money at all. It's that simple. Given the current decline in the market, anything less than $24.99 will likely lose money.

For myself, I never mentioned the Core's. I think the "we figure people will pay it" book was FRCS and the many discussions that arose from that. My memory may be flawed though.
The core's were not only ALWAYS presented as a "discount price for the first part" (and heck, they're 30 now but also that price was specifically as part of the large print run.

 

[Nellisir]

I think what we're seeing now are the 2nd and 3rd tier publishers trying to break into profitability. I think the 1st tier publishers (offhand, WotC, WW, and AEG) have been pretty consistent with pricing -- a reflection of experience and working with established professionals (writers, artists, and editors, plus layout, printers, sales...).

I like spacecrime's 3 product tiers, and I'd love to see a market that'd support pdfs ($5-$10), budget products ($10 - $25), premium products ($25-$45), and super premium ($45 +) products. Something for everyone!

Nell.

 

[monkius]

If the game was more expensive, it likely would have sold about the same amount, but have been more profitable.

*That* conundrum is what this whole discussion really boils down to. Even if you lose a few sales by making a book more expensive, its more profitable.

What worries me is that sentiment could start a death-spiral for the industry. Publishers are feeling the pinch with reduced sales, so they increase the price. Gamers react to the increased price and buy less. So publishers raise the price again, ...

Now as others have said, over time the 'bad' companies will begin to die off, which may help stabilize prices.

But at that point it may be too late. Look around at most gaming stores, what do you see? Role playing games, board games, miniatures, collectible card games, and collectible miniature games. Role playing game publishers are in competition with those other products for the gamers' dollars.

We can talk all we want about how great a value a $50 book is, but look at what the young gamer has to choose between:
- $50 book
- $10 starter deck + 13 ($3) booster packs of a CCG
- $20 starter pack + 4 ($7) booster packs of miniatures

Let's look at how they compare:

Artwork:
The book has great artwork, but so do many of the card games, and the miniatures are neat as well.

Ease of Entry:
CCG < CMG < RPG in terms of cost. Someone can try 5 different CCG for the price of one book.

Promotion/Events:
Stores gives away 'special' cards for CCG if you buy $X worth of cards. Plus the owner is happy to dig through his box of previous promotions and give them to you.

Many stores have in-house CCG and CMG events, many sponsored by the vendors with special collectible prizes. It is easy for someone to buy a starter pack and either join in immediately or at the next event.

Only some stores allow RPG groups to play there. Unless they are using miniatures, there is not as much of a display of colorful cards / miniatures to interest people. Even if someone is interested, the campaign may be full / can only take so many people.

Closing Thoughts
So what now? I don't know. I think CCG and CMG are attracting more of the younger gamers. And if RPGs continue raising their prices, I think they will become a smaller and smaller niche, which to me would be a sad thing.

Even more worrisome, if we look beyond the gaming store, at $50 computer / console games become competitors as well. Is that a market that RPG books really want to be competing in?

 

[Dark Psion]

Another aspect of this is Online sales. Since I don't have a FLGS, I can't "see" that $50 Babylon 5 book, so I am less likely to buy it and for the record have not. Despite being a die hard B5 fan, I would rather get the DVD sets I know I will use. (and it is Mongoose )

Also, there is the E-bay option, if you are willing to wait for it.

As to the question of price, for the publisher the question is exactly how much did this cost me! For the consumer, the question is what is it worth? The customer has a "perceived value" for a product and with some products, cross that line and it will not sell. The perceived value is different to each customer and does not make sense no matter how you look at it. Price it at $30.00 and it sets on the shelf, change the price to $29.95 and it will sell out.

To this day it amazes me how many $1 bottle of water we sell despite having a water fountain next to the cooler.

As to my own purchases, first I Try to keep a budget of no more than $50-$75 a month on gaming. So that means one $50 book and I am done for the month. As to perceived value, I have a gardening book "A-Z Guide to Plants" it lists at $79.99, I got it for $50. It is hardcover, full color glossy paper and weighs in at 1100 pages. Because it was on sale and I knew I would use it in the greenhouse, I perceved it was worth the cost. I would even say it has had extra value since when I pull out this huge book, it tells my customers I know what I am talking about. (And I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Tome) for the angry customers)

While a Babylon 5 book would be nice just to read, $45 is a little too pricey, especially for sight unseen. If I had the book in my hands, my perceptions might change and I would require someone to try and stop me from buying it

 

[Darrin Drader]

What worries me is that sentiment could start a death-spiral for the industry. Publishers are feeling the pinch with reduced sales, so they increase the price. Gamers react to the increased price and buy less. So publishers raise the price again, ...

I don't see there being much danger in that. If prices on the whole get too high, people probably will buy less, or at least be more selective, which will really not benefit anyone except for the publisher that makes virtually every book a 'must have.' As far as I'm concerned, there's really only one publisher that falls into that category. Otherwise publishers are going to have to continue walking the razor thin line between competative pricing and profitability. As has been pointed out already on this thread, the high priced stuff is mainly the licensed books, and its no mystery why those are priced the way they are. On the other hand, looking at B5 again, The Coming of Shadows is 142 pages long, full color, and only $25. That's not a bad deal.

 

[Vigilance]

What worries me is that sentiment could start a death-spiral for the industry. Publishers are feeling the pinch with reduced sales, so they increase the price. Gamers react to the increased price and buy less. So publishers raise the price again, ...

Well- my example with Vigilance has only happened that one time Monk, but when I work over a month and dont get paid, that's as dead as it gets. No spiral. Just dead.

So the book has to be priced at a level where it will be profitable. There's no middle ground there.

If people don't want to pay that, then I find another line of work. But pricing the product at a level to where I am writing for free doesn't feel like "death spiral avoidance" to me.

Chuck

 

[ES2]

How big will Grim Tales be and how much?

And on this topic of sells, impulse buying, and the decline of impulse buying...the less you impulse buy, the more I can select from when I do decide to impulse buy, so by all means those of you who are deciding not to that leaves more for me to purchase.

 

[Desdichado]

I suspect you know very little about Millionaires. A million dollars at 5% interest is $50,000.00 per year in interest income. That is the money a non-working millionaire gets to live on over the course of a year; and that is about the average household income. I work with many millionaires and none of them own yachts or Ferraris. Don't confuse television/movie/music/sports millionaires with the other 98% of the millionaires in the country.

That's true, but you've also adopted the barest minimal definition of a millionaire and a very conservative interest rate -- apparently that millionaire has invested in treasury bonds or something like that.

 

[Psion]

In a nutshell, most gamers do not (nor have a desire to) understand the economics of publishing and what it really costs the publisher to produce that book.

Why should they?

Do you wonder how much your car cost the auto manufacturer when you buy it? Or your cable service?

It seems to me whenever this issue comes up, publishers chime in with "you have got to understand our point of view." Understanding that is all well and good, and it never hurts to be an informed consumer. (Further, I think your attributing consumers ignorance for their comparing core books to small print books is really describing a small subset of consumers. When they see that every 96-128 page book out there is $20 or so, it should occur to most what the prevailing price is.)

But at the same time, just understanding where the publisher is coming from does not divorce the consumer from their motives. A consumer is driven almost strictly by cost-benefit. If your product does not provide something that the consumer wants at a price they are willing to pay, then they aren't going to buy it. Now true, this means some products just won't sell well period, but that's the reality of the situation. Gaming is not a charity.

In a nutshell, other publishers cannot price a book at $19.99 and expect to make money at all. It's that simple. Given the current decline in the market, anything less than $24.99 will likely lose money.

But by the same token, if you are selling your 96 page softback books for $24 and the audience can get 128 page softback books with comparable content (i.e., not talking about core books here) from another publisher for $20 dollars, then you have to have quite a sales pitch to fight the natural and expected tendency of the customer to purchase your product over your competitor's.

Certain ramifications of the d20 open gaming license are starting to come to light, especially in recent months. Over the past three years we've seen countless publishers enter the RPG market with their own d20 book(s). As gamers have already noted, this has resulted in a very diverse amount of material (and I'm not even addressing pdfs). So much material, in fact, that retailers do not even attempt to stock it all because they cannot afford to and their clientele does not purchase it all.

I thought this was old news, no "recent months" about it (unless you mean the "last 6-8 months" by recent -- I have been hearing this for a while.)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

How big will Grim Tales be and how much?

Because it's relevant to the discussion: 192 pages, hardback, b/w interior: $34.95.