Primal Power Excerpt: The Swarm Druid

[Cadfan]

MaximumHavoc- But beneficial zones created in close bursts don't have holes in them, right?

 

[JPL]

I just like the idea of guy who screams, "I AM MADE OF BEES!" and then turns into bees and shoots bees at people and so forth.

Also . . . a myrmidon. Fighter / druid hybrid who turns into a swarm of ants. Cool.

 

[MaximumHavoc]

MaximumHavoc- But beneficial zones created in close bursts don't have holes in them, right?

i don't want to derail this thread, but i also do not want to ignore your question, cadfan.

i am no rules expert and i do not claim to know the answer to every permutation of this close burst/zone issue. but, i can identify (i) some of the pertinent rules and (ii) the fact that the close burst/hole topic has been both discussed and resolved previously. just trying to be helpful.

your question introduces "beneficial" to the existing factors of zones and close bursts. perhaps, you are thinking of a specific example. perhaps, that example specifically provides for a hole. i do not know. i cannot recall reading a general rule regarding "beneficial" "close burst" "zones".

back on topic

i am so happy that wotc has made the druid--my favorite class since 1e--such a flavorfully and mechanically rich class in 4e. and the swarm druid build appears to be a very nice, additional layer to that class.

 

[Cadfan]

There are a lot of close bursts that create zones that do good things. Like Consecrated Ground or Hallowed Circle or Sacred Circle. Are other people playing these like they have little holes in the middle?

By a strict reading from the pro-hole side of the debate, Healing Word can't heal the cleric, because he's not in a close burst 5 of himself. He's in the little tiny hole inside of the close burst 5 that isn't included.

 

[MaximumHavoc]

There are a lot of close bursts that create zones that do good things. Like Consecrated Ground or Hallowed Circle or Sacred Circle. Are other people playing these like they have little holes in the middle?

By a strict reading from the pro-hole side of the debate, Healing Word can't heal the cleric, because he's not in a close burst 5 of himself. He's in the little tiny hole inside of the close burst 5 that isn't included.

i will attempt to provide an acceptable answer:

If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins. For example, a general rule states that you can’t use a daily power when you charge. But if you have a daily power that says you can use it when you charge, the power’s specific rule wins. It doesn’t mean that you can use any daily power when you charge, just that one. PHB 11

general rule
Unless a power description notes otherwise, a close burst you create does not affect you. PHB 272

specific rule
healing word - close burst - target: you or one ally. PHB 62

 

[gribble]

Are other people playing these like they have little holes in the middle?
By a strict reading from the pro-hole side of the debate...

I don't think there is a "pro-hole" side of the debate. My information was based on the diagram in the PHB, which seems to be incorrect as per the full rules.

So I think we're all in agreement now that there is no hole in a close burst.

However, I'll disagree with Jack99 on a RAW interpretation of the effect. By RAW, the druid is absolutely effected by the zones initial attack (and any subsequent attack).

I'll agree that RAI, it seems to make sense for the druid to not be effected - it's silly otherwise - but allowing for zones to not effect the creator carte-blanche is a pretty big change to the current ruleset. It significantly powers up existing zone powers (which are generally considered quite powerful already)!

Often I've found with 4e that the common-sense interpretation often isn't the correct one and can result in big balance issues.

<tangent>
It's one of the (many) things I love about the Monsterpocalypse CMG from Privateer Press. In 99% of cases, the common-sense, RAW interpretation is the correct one and the one that results in the least number of balance issues. I wish more games could get that one right...
</tangent>

 

[Jack99]

However, I'll disagree with Jack99 on a RAW interpretation of the effect. By RAW, the druid is absolutely effected by the zones initial attack (and any subsequent attack).

How so. RAW is pretty clear.

Unless a power description notes otherwise, a close burst you create does not affect you. However, an area burst you create does affect you. A burst affects a target only if there is line of effect from the burst’s origin square to the target.

Nothing in the power should override that. The only thing I can see that could be interpreted as such would be that it affects all creatures. But then every single wizard close burst power would affect the wizard as well.

I'll agree that RAI, it seems to make sense for the druid to not be effected - it's silly otherwise - but allowing for zones to not effect the creator carte-blanche is a pretty big change to the current ruleset. It significantly powers up existing zone powers (which are generally considered quite powerful already)!

I agree that the fact that a zone is created makes things troublesome. I still think I will stick to the druid being immune, especially if this type of power is one of a kind. But maybe the designers will save us and let us know what they intended or perhaps even errata the power.

Often I've found with 4e that the common-sense interpretation often isn't the correct one and can result in big balance issues.

Could you toss us an example?

 

[gribble]

How so. RAW is pretty clear.

I agree it's clear, but not the way you're interpreting it! The key phrases to me are:

"The burst creates a zone of vermin that lasts until the end of your next turn."

and

"When the zone appears, make the following attack. As a standard action, you can repeat the attack.
Target: Each creature within the zone or adjacent to it"

So the close burst doesn't attack anything (and the rule you quoted is irrelevant). It simply creates a zone and the zone then attacks (and note that the zone attack isn't a close burst itself - it's an attack against every creature adjacent to or in the zone).

Could you toss us an example?

Several. They way that flying creatures move (and movement in general, which is related to the non-euclidean geometry of 4e). The effect of Tide of Iron and/or things like garottes (seriously, we had a gargantuan blue dragon on the battlemat last night, and thinking about how my assassin's garotte was supposed to hurt it in any way, let alone grab and immobilise it just broke my mind). That's just off the top of my head - I'm sure I could dig up several other examples.

The fact is that 4e favors balance, simplicity and action over "realism" and common sense. I've found through experience that literal RAW rules interpretations rather than trying to gauge intent or applying common sense just works better. Not saying it's a bad thing - it's just what it is and favors certain types of games and rules interpretations.

 

[Cadfan]

i will attempt to provide an acceptable answer:

If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins. For example, a general rule states that you can’t use a daily power when you charge. But if you have a daily power that says you can use it when you charge, the power’s specific rule wins. It doesn’t mean that you can use any daily power when you charge, just that one. PHB 11

general rule
Unless a power description notes otherwise, a close burst you create does not affect you. PHB 272

specific rule
healing word - close burst - target: you or one ally. PHB 62

That's a superficially good argument, but it doesn't actually make sense. The target "you or one ally" has to be within the range of the spell. If an ally isn't in the range of the spell, it can't affect the ally. If you aren't in the range of the spell, it can't affect you. And under your interpretation, by definition you are not in the range of this spell.

I know that's silly and counter intuitive, but its the result of believing that close bursts are templates with little tiny holes in them. If something's range is anywhere in that template, then the guy in the little tiny hole isn't in the range. End of story.

 

[MrMyth]

I agree it's clear, but not the way you're interpreting it! The key phrases to me are:

"The burst creates a zone of vermin that lasts until the end of your next turn."

and

"When the zone appears, make the following attack. As a standard action, you can repeat the attack.
Target: Each creature within the zone or adjacent to it"

So the close burst doesn't attack anything (and the rule you quoted is irrelevant). It simply creates a zone and the zone then attacks (and note that the zone attack isn't a close burst itself - it's an attack against every creature adjacent to or in the zone).

I'm with Jack on this one - RAW, everything the power does is part of it. It is a Close Burst power. Thus, nothing the power does affects the caster.

This does produce odd results with beneficial effects - but typically those will outright state they apply to the caster, which presents us with specific overriding general.