Primal Power oopses

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are a few ways you could interpret Whirling Rend (etc). The attack roll clearly utilizes the main weapon only as that is noted in the Attack: line. When it comes to damage it could be that you use the main weapon's crit for both, the secondary weapon's crit for the secondary damage, or the secondary is simply a damage bonus which doesn't benefit from a crit at all.

Personally I'd favor the second alternative. If you crit with the attack, then the secondary damage is calculated as crit damage with the off-hand weapon.

I'm not sure how Mending Spirit is any better than say if you MCed into Cleric and power swapped in a cleric encounter healing power. There are in any case plenty of ways a character can get encounter healing without even needing to multiclass. Plenty of good items for that.

 

[keterys]

It's an attack with a single weapon. That weapon crits, you add that (main weapon) critical damage. Incidentally, you maximize that damage bonus of 1W from the offhand too.

 

[LightPhoenix]

While I've noticed some minor design "oops"es in Primal Power (like, say, the multiclass feats calling out out specific prerequisites, rather than just calling out prerequisite class features so they can be adapted to future development without eratta,

I noticed this too when I flipped through the book (I haven't given it a good read yet). At first I thought it was an error, but now I'm thinking it's a deliberate design decision. You don't have to wait until paragon tier to pick up additional aspects of your multi-class. Note that we didn't get any entry-level feats either, suggesting that the ones in PHB2 are it. You get the basic class feature, and then expand with additional feats. I think we're seeing the first steps towards an alternative multiclass feat system.

 

[bganon]

Yeah, my crit question was about things like bonus dice from magic weapons, "high crit", and various special magic weapon crit properties. I didn't think about the attack roll; I agree with Ridcully, though, that the most straightforward thing is to use the crit properties of whichever weapon you used for the attack roll.

Of course, I suppose this encourages somewhat strange things like a level 13 character using a +4 bastard sword for the main hand weapon and a nonmagical craghammer/waraxe for offhand... without even needing to be proficient in either of the latter (fun fact: Whirling Slayer and the various two-weapon feats never mention proficiency as a requirement). This probably isn't actually too bad a thing; it's a relief from the ranger's usual problem of having to keep up the enhancement bonus on two weapons instead of just one. Still kinda weird, though.

I don't think Mending Spirit is a problem, and I think Thaneborns don't have it too badly since they'll have better NADs. Plus it always looked to me like they don't depend as much as some classes on their secondary stat for effectiveness anyway, so they have an easier time giving up a little Cha for some Dex.

I'd second the above comment about the multiclass feat prereqs, too. It really looks to me like a carefully deliberate return to "feat chains".

And Targeted Assault as a benefit against those marking you makes a lot more sense as a Barbarian feat, so I really hope that's what it's supposed to be.

 

[mneme]

Re Barbarian crits: I think it really is as awseome as it looks at first. You attack and determine hit/crit from the main weapon, then do damage as if you hit (or crit) with both weapons simultaneously (and yes, of course you get both sets of properties -- you're doing damage with both weapons!). so yeah, I think if you crit with your rapier +2, both it and your cragmore +2 get to deal both maximized weapon damage and crit damage (your are, after all, adding both +2s into damage, weirdly enough). Jagged main weapons get all kind of awesome, given the "great crit range, mediocre crit property" bit.

I think it not unlikely that at some point, Targetted Assault was "creature marking you" and while it would nerf it, I wouldn't be surprised if errata happened in that direction (also noticed that, after I posted this). It's possible this was an attempt to make the feat more viable, though (which wasn't thought about from the multiclassing perspective).

Mending Spirit: well, for starters, you don't have to trade out a power; multiclass feats that give you a new power are inherently strong. There are items that give you per-encounter healing, but most of them are Paragon levels (and they're probably too strong).

 

[mneme]

At first I thought it was an error, but now I'm thinking it's a deliberate design decision.

I think it's a deliberate design decision done kinda badly.

The problem is not that it's a 2nd level deep feat, but that it's a 2nd level feat that (unlike most 4e tiered feats) requires a specific other feat, instead of requiring a specific feature or combination of features.

In the second case, it doesn't matter how you got the features; you have the basic set, here, have some more. In the first, you have to buy the chain -- which gives a certain amount of control, but tends to make for "you can't get there from here".

Consider:

2nd Tier Druid [Multiclass Druid]. Prerequisites: Initiate of the Old Faith
vs.
2nd Tier Druid [Multiclass Druid]. Prerequeisites: Druid, Wild Shape
vs.
2nd Tier Druid [Multiclass Druid]. Prerequisites: Wild Shape

In the first case (the one we have), there's an immutable feat chain. If you want to get better Wild Shape speed, you -will- take Initiate, and then you can take the new feat. This gives control.

On the other hand, the 2nd one gives the -same- amount of control (you need to both have Wild Shape and be a druid before you take the feat) but lets them print up new wild shape feats and have them still work.

The third, I'll admit is a risk -- as it's really a 1.5 tier feat (ignoring how dreadfully weak this feat is, due to the inability of multiclass druids to make good use of wild shape. totally ignoring that; I suppose you could be a half elven druid and get an at will attack). If they ever print a non-druid class that has the Wild Shape feature, that class could multiclass into Druid with just this feat. But..that's a -good- thing; it would mean Druid has something to offer a class that has ready-made synergy with Druid, without having to take a redundant feat!

 

[bganon]

So a low paragon Whirly-Barb with Deadly Axe and two +3 vicious waraxes rolls a crit, and deals max weapon damage plus 10d12 on top of that? That seems a bit much, even for a barbarian.

Actually, do you even add the enhancement damage to both rolls? I didn't originally read it that way, but maybe you're right. Piling two bundles of bonus damage onto a single crit still seems wrong to me, though.

 

[keterys]

Does feel like an FAQ waiting to happen. That said, I'd be extremely curious to see any rules citation that suggests you get critical dice from the off-hand weapon that you didn't make an attack roll (and critical) with.

Especially in the theory of using a weapon with a greater crit range in the main hand

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

On the other hand, the 2nd one gives the -same- amount of control (you need to both have Wild Shape and be a druid before you take the feat) but lets them print up new wild shape feats and have them still work.

No it doesn't. You can't take Initiate if you are already a Druid. You can't multiclass into a class you already have. The prerequisite restricts this ONLY to multiclass Druids and not to single class Druids.

Since there is only one multiclass feat for Druids, you need to have it to be a multiclass Druid. I think it works exactly as expected. The only flaw is that they can't print another multiclass Druid feat and use that as an alternate way to get into the class.

The third, I'll admit is a risk -- as it's really a 1.5 tier feat (ignoring how dreadfully weak this feat is, due to the inability of multiclass druids to make good use of wild shape. totally ignoring that; I suppose you could be a half elven druid and get an at will attack). If they ever print a non-druid class that has the Wild Shape feature, that class could multiclass into Druid with just this feat. But..that's a -good- thing; it would mean Druid has something to offer a class that has ready-made synergy with Druid, without having to take a redundant feat!

I don't know. You could take a bunch of multiclass feats in order to get a couple of encounter powers that have the Beast keyword. Also, since you can use Wildshape at will, it just lets you move 1 square more almost whenever you want.

I also think the chance that another class comes out that allows you to Wild Shape is about as slim as another class coming out that lets you Aegis of Shielding or Oath of Emnity. Which is to say, pretty close to 0. Even if another class came out that allowed you to change into animals, it would likely be named something else.

 

[mneme]

No it doesn't. You can't take Initiate if you are already a Druid. You can't multiclass into a class you already have.

Of course not. And no, of course this makes no difference with the rules as they are; the issue is that the "deeper multiclassing" feat isn't current development, but that it's bad design vis-a-vis future development.

I don't know. You could take a bunch of multiclass feats in order to get a couple of encounter powers that have the Beast keyword. Also, since you can use Wildshape at will, it just lets you move 1 square more almost whenever you want.

Sure, but it's still really terrible, since you don't have any basic attacks in Beast form once you've used up the encounter ones. I suppose you could have a druid multi who uses Beast to run away, but remember that without a feat, you can only shift when changing into a human, not the other way around.

I also think the chance that another class comes out that allows you to Wild Shape is about as slim as another class coming out that lets you Aegis of Shielding or Oath of Emnity. Which is to say, pretty close to 0. Even if another class came out that allowed you to change into animals, it would likely be named something else.

Maybe, maybe not. Ranger and Warlock both have Prime Shot, for example, so I could totally see Wizards using "Wild Shape" if they made another class with as much emphasis on (similar) shapeshifting as druids have.

Oh, in terms of -pointless- deeper multiclass feats, look at Rampage. A basic attack on a crit...when you do so with a Barbarian attack? As a multiclass barbarian? On your, what, 2 barbarian attacks per encounter (using salve of power to reuse your daily, presumably)? How often do you expect to crit--because even with Close Burst attacks, I predict this giving you -an- extra attack every other session (more at paragon, of course, but still not something you can count on).