D&D 5E Primary Casting Stat per tier

[Warpiglet-7]

I realize there are lots of opinions on this!

I see a ton of opinion about MAD vs SAD builds. My question is about tier and ability scores to in primary casting stats.

I want something a little more concrete to chew on. Mid tier, what is the realistic difference in percentage of success of a ‘16’ vs. an ‘18’ or ‘20?’

More specifically let’s say it’s a wisdom save. How much do wisdom saves of monsters really go up mid tier?

In a typical game, how many more hits does an 18 or 20 actually get you vs. a 16?

 

[Stoutstien]

Averages are going to mostly useless here because the data points aren't distributed on any kind of curve and there isn't a set difficulty level of play to form a baseline. Saying that most published modules assume pretty low modifiers.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Averages are going to mostly useless here because the data points aren't distributed on any kind of curve and there isn't a set difficulty level of play to form a baseline. Saying that most published modules assume pretty low modifiers.

Yeah—lots of variables. Even within a CR—different creatures have different strengths. But I wanted to see what folks expect—-and particularly people who are obs—er interested in SAD characters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I realize there are lots of opinions on this!

I see a ton of opinion about MAD vs SAD builds. My question is about tier and ability scores to in primary casting stats.

I want something a little more concrete to chew on. Mid tier, what is the realistic difference in percentage of success of a ‘16’ vs. an ‘18’ or ‘20?’

More specifically let’s say it’s a wisdom save. How much do wisdom saves of monsters really go up mid tier?

In a typical game, how many more hits does an 18 or 20 actually get you vs. a 16?

its hard to say (I am sure someone has the MM stats on a spread sheet to do it though.

off hand from lived experience stating right at level 1 and all the way through 20 a well planed wizard can target weak saves and if one maxes there stat they can make it all but guaranteed to land 1/2 there spells.

 

[Stoutstien]

its hard to say (I am sure someone has the MM stats on a spread sheet to do it though.

off hand from lived experience stating right at level 1 and all the way through 20 a well planed wizard can target weak saves and if one maxes there stat they can make it all but guaranteed to land 1/2 there spells.

That's about what you end up with if you use the DMG monster design table and just assume that everything has a zero modifier but proficiency in a certain save. Working with stats of 14-18 as your range for tier one it comes out to 45/50/55%.
If all they do is pump their casting stat this holds true until CR 30.

Working off that if the majority of encounters involve multiple targets with creatures who CR are PC level- 3 you end up with a pattern that fits the tier of play well enough.

It's probably easy to do with attack roll seeing how armor classes don't scale nearly as much.

 

[DND_Reborn]

My spreadsheet (unfortunately) doesn't include what creatures are proficient in which saves.

For example, I can give you average AC by tier (13, 15, 17, 19 or so, depending on where you break the CRs), hit points, ability scores, and maybe a bit more, but that is about it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's about what you end up with if you use the DMG monster design table and just assume that everything has a zero modifier but proficiency in a certain save. Working with stats of 14-18 as your range for tier one it comes out to 45/50/55%.
If all they do is pump their casting stat this holds true until CR 30.

Working off that if the majority of encounters involve multiple targets with creatures who CR are PC level- 3 you end up with a pattern that fits the tier of play well enough.

It's probably easy to do with attack roll seeing how armor classes don't scale nearly as much.

that feels like it matches my experience.

I want to add, that even though there is a large portion of the time that it not only isn't always, but it can sometimes be less optimal.

Example: a level-3 or less encounter that you could just spam cantrips to save your slots for a bigger encounter, but then in the bigger encounter it's a legendary with prof in 3 or even 5 saves. (I actually had a wizard figure out because of how I built encounter days that large boom nova types ending small encounters and then back seating or switching to weapon/cantrips for bigger encounters can be more optimal.

 

[aco175]

To compete against the PCs, I tend to boost the monsters some. Mostly HP and AC, but I tend to leave spell DC alone since that targets PCs with wide save modifiers.

I find players tend to have a 16 in the primary stat and 18 by level 4 or maybe 8 if there was a great feat at 4th level. By level 8 there is likely an item that boosts the DC by 1 as well. This may change some if the attribute is Dex over a casting attribute, since that seems to boot so many things. I find my players do not find that they need to go from a 13 DC save to a 15 by level X and tend to boost Dex or Con more at level 4 and 8.

 

[Blue]

For attacks of any type including spell attacks, the "standard" character optimization number I see is a 65% chance to hit assuming your prime ability score is raised when you can. So mid tier, where it's expecting a 20, a 16 would be a 55% chance to hit. That's about 15% conversion of hits to misses with the lower score.

But that's the most affected number. Saves are another deal. Because of the nature of them, a monster will likely have at most four good saves between high modifiers and proficiency, so it will have two or more saves that do not really scale with their CR. A character having a spell DC that isn't scaling either is even, and with a 16 is still pretty good. So if you have the flexibility to pick a wide selection of spells against different saves, your ability score modifier isn't a big deal. On the other had, a class like the bard with primarily WIS saves could find themselves in trouble with only a 16.

A few casters get additional effect from their ability score. Healing adds the modifier in - a Healing Word for d4+3 (avg 5.5) vs. d4+5 (avg 7.5) loses more than a quarter of it's effectiveness. A warlock's EB with Agonizing Blast adds +CHR to damage, on top of it already being a spell attack, so is very sensitive to that lower score.

Many classes/subclasses also offer modifiers on the casting ability, most commonly uses per rest but sometimes a DC or effect modifier. The bard gets a decent amount of power out of one of the few non-Concentration buffs that also has nifty usage by subclass with Bardic Inspiration, and 3 per short rest is 40% less than 5 per short rest.

How often skills associated with your prime come up in play is also a factor. A CHR caster who also is the party face will find that 16 vs. 20 comes up not just in more rolls, but in more rolls that aren't averaged away by the large number of rolls in combat. In other words non-combat pillars are often resolved with a lot less rolls so each one is more important to succeed, even though the d20 is very swingy. WIS casters have a selection of useful practical skills including the ever-popular Perception, while INT casters have a selection that is often not replicated by other characters with the possible exceptions of Religion or Investigation, and even there has a big advantage.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

For attacks of any type including spell attacks, the "standard" character optimization number I see is a 65% chance to hit assuming your prime ability score is raised when you can. So mid tier, where it's expecting a 20, a 16 would be a 55% chance to hit. That's about 15% conversion of hits to misses with the lower score.

But that's the most affected number. Saves are another deal. Because of the nature of them, a monster will likely have at most four good saves between high modifiers and proficiency, so it will have two or more saves that do not really scale with their CR. A character having a spell DC that isn't scaling either is even, and with a 16 is still pretty good. So if you have the flexibility to pick a wide selection of spells against different saves, your ability score modifier isn't a big deal. On the other had, a class like the bard with primarily WIS saves could find themselves in trouble with only a 16.

A few casters get additional effect from their ability score. Healing adds the modifier in - a Healing Word for d4+3 (avg 5.5) vs. d4+5 (avg 7.5) loses more than a quarter of it's effectiveness. A warlock's EB with Agonizing Blast adds +CHR to damage, on top of it already being a spell attack, so is very sensitive to that lower score.

Many classes/subclasses also offer modifiers on the casting ability, most commonly uses per rest but sometimes a DC or effect modifier. The bard gets a decent amount of power out of one of the few non-Concentration buffs that also has nifty usage by subclass with Bardic Inspiration, and 3 per short rest is 40% less than 5 per short rest.

How often skills associated with your prime come up in play is also a factor. A CHR caster who also is the party face will find that 16 vs. 20 comes up not just in more rolls, but in more rolls that aren't averaged away by the large number of rolls in combat. In other words non-combat pillars are often resolved with a lot less rolls so each one is more important to succeed, even though the d20 is very swingy. WIS casters have a selection of useful practical skills including the ever-popular Perception, while INT casters have a selection that is often not replicated by other characters with the possible exceptions of Religion or Investigation, and even there has a big advantage.

This is a really useful analysis.

I often am tempted to boost things other than primary casting stat and or like to take feats.

It just interests me more BUT I did not want to pay lot of love into a character only to find I am not reasonably successful.

I am playing a cleric with (gasp!) high strength and was looking at fun options. I will have a 16 wisdom at 8th.

What you said really resonated; picking your targets matters. I was looking at targeting CHR saves vs. AC for example…totally different ballgame with some monsters! Or wisdom vs. dex…