D&D 5E [Primeval Thule] House rules for spellcasting

[Agamon]

So in PT, magic is rare, untrusted, and dangerous. But magic is really none of those things in D&D. The Wild Mage sorcerer can be random, but the effects are fairly tame and often actually helpful. So I'm throwing around some ideas for house rules to make magic less cozy and reliable, using the wild mage's "roll a d20, effect on a 1".

For arcane style casters (wizard, sorcerer, warlock, eldritch knight, arcane trickster), I'm considering using DCC RPG's Corruption tables. Basically, there's three tables, each progressively worse, that individual spells in that game are assigned to. So, I'd need to assign each spell to a table (so, a spell like Magic Missile (magical energy) would be minor, Charm Person (messing with someone's mind) would use the middle table, Animate Dead (messing with forces mortals shouldn't) would use the worst table.

I can't really copy the tables here, of course, but do get an idea, the minor table is small, permanent changes to the caster's physiology, the middle table is worse changes to physiology and some to environment, the major table causes bad things to happen to the caster and sometimes those around him.

For divine casters (just cleric - there are no paladins in PT), they don't get their power directly from deities at each spell casting, they undergo an initiation ritual when they become spellcasting clerics to get a shard of power from the deity. What they do with it after that is up to them.

So I'm thinking on a roll of one, the power surges or backlashes, causing damage to the cleric, I'm thinking 1d8/spell level.

Druids and rangers get their power from nature spirits. Those spirits are fickle and for whatever reason, might not want to help the caster when they ask for power. So, on a roll of a one, the spell fails, but the spell and action are still used up.

I'm not trying to perfectly balance the three. Arcane is the worst, and it should be. Divine can be scary, which is what I'm shooting for. Primal could just be annoying, but in certain circumstances, could also make for a bad situation.

A few bumps though...

Elves are supposedly good with arcane magic. They also live a long time. Making a lot of corruption rolls over their lifetime, an elder elf would more closely resemble a demonic being than an elf. I'll probably just roll with that as I don't want to give elves too much of an advantage, or every PC wizard will just be an elf.

Also, not sure what to do with cantrips. Like the Wild Mage, I don't want there to be a check every time a cantrip is cast, but on the other hand, slinging around fire bolts and light spells willy-nilly doesn't really fit the setting.

Thoughts?

 

[ChrisCarlson]

One of the houserules I considered early on in 5e, should a player e'er want to play a wild mage in one of my games, was to up the chances of a wild surge slightly (since that is obviously something the player is interested in having happen anyway).

I was thinking to change the rule, from a just '1' on a d20, to instead a result equal to or less than the level of the spell. So, for example, a 9th-level spell triggers a surge on a 9 or less.

Of course, for PT, a different result system for what happens when it is triggered (rather than the wild mage chart--which I agree isn't really fitting) would be best. Maybe even a sliding scale of charts you would roll on depending on how much of a difference your check is from the spell level. So 0-2, mild something-or-other. 3-5, moderate shenanigans. 6-8, deep scat.

Plus, depending on how scary you want to make PT magic, you could even have them roll that initial check on a d10! :evilgrin:

 

[Panartias]

You could borrow from the old Ravenloft setting: There were power checks for some actions to see, if you would attract the attention of the dimension...

There is a list of physical alterations and some kind of bonuses as well.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I'm AFB, but I want to go re-read the madness section in the DMG when I get home and see how that could fit into all this...

 

[Psikerlord#]

I like the idea of a dangerous magic type table, but suggest on a d20 roll of 1 or 20, to up the chances to 10%. I would build that roll into the spell itself where possible - eg if it's an attack roll spell, you use the first attack roll d20 for the 1/20. If it's a save spell, you use the first save for the 1/20 chance. So you dont have to roll additional dice for many spells (similar to the Fighter abilities in 13th Age).

I would be inclined to give the physical mutations a time limit - maybe very long limits, like 2d20 days - but some kind of limit to avoid demon elves and so on..?

I was thinking about the forest gods magic the other day and how that should work with a dangerous magic table. I understand you arent trying to balance the 3 kinds of magic (arcane, divine, primal), but personally I would make all casters roll on the table for balance reasons. (I might have to slightly alter the primeval thule magic theme for that - a kind of "all" magic is mysterious/not well understood/Not for Man to Know/tainted by the Old Ones).

 

[Greg Benage]

At least for my first game, I'm going to ban spellcasting classes. I'm going to allow the Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster feats, and I'm going to allow the magic-oriented narratives to use class-appropriate magic items, including scrolls. Even then, I'm going to restrict available spells to those that support the sword-and-sorcery vibe. Some of the evocation spells that don't belong can probably be reskinned (change "magic missile" to "agonizing pain" or whatever). I'll probably also make one-action spells begin on the caster's initiative and take effect at the end of the round. Since the PCs generally won't have it, I want spells to be powerful and scary -- but I want the characters to be able to interrupt casters in combat.

I think I'd do much the same if I were allowing PC spellcasters. Remove or reskin most of the evocation and much of the conjuration school, plus slow casting. I'd look at madness or corruption mechanics, but my concern would be that either a) no one would play a spellcaster anyway, if the effects were nasty enough; or b) the non-casting "heroes" of Primeval Thule would just kill their spellcasting comrade the first time he did anything spooky. All in all, for me it plays better in the setting if spellcasters are the bad guys.

 

[Agamon]

One of the houserules I considered early on in 5e, should a player e'er want to play a wild mage in one of my games, was to up the chances of a wild surge slightly (since that is obviously something the player is interested in having happen anyway).

I was thinking to change the rule, from a just '1' on a d20, to instead a result equal to or less than the level of the spell. So, for example, a 9th-level spell triggers a surge on a 9 or less.

We've actually been doing this with out WM PC in our FR game. It's maybe a bit much for the more drastic and permanent things that could happen to a wizard with my rules...might be something to consider for warlocks. Probably never see a PC warlock, but that's not a bad result, either.

 

[Agamon]

I like the idea of a dangerous magic type table, but suggest on a d20 roll of 1 or 20, to up the chances to 10%. I would build that roll into the spell itself where possible - eg if it's an attack roll spell, you use the first attack roll d20 for the 1/20. If it's a save spell, you use the first save for the 1/20 chance. So you dont have to roll additional dice for many spells (similar to the Fighter abilities in 13th Age).

Interesting. Yeah, the 1 in 20 chance is small, something we discovered with out current wild mage (thus the [spell level] in 20 house rule).

I would be inclined to give the physical mutations a time limit - maybe very long limits, like 2d20 days - but some kind of limit to avoid demon elves and so on..?

I considered this, but it doesn't quite pack the same punch. I want magic to come with a heavy price. One that's acceptable to the power mad, and no so much for anyone else.

I was thinking about the forest gods magic the other day and how that should work with a dangerous magic table. I understand you arent trying to balance the 3 kinds of magic (arcane, divine, primal), but personally I would make all casters roll on the table for balance reasons. (I might have to slightly alter the primeval thule magic theme for that - a kind of "all" magic is mysterious/not well understood/Not for Man to Know/tainted by the Old Ones).

Understandable. I like the idea, personally, that there's a kind of magic even barbarians might accept (even if it's awe-inducing), a kind that civilized people think is amazing, if maybe foolhardy, and a type that everyone considers very taboo. Different consequences to each type does the job, I think.

 

[Agamon]

I think I'd do much the same if I were allowing PC spellcasters. Remove or reskin most of the evocation and much of the conjuration school, plus slow casting. I'd look at madness or corruption mechanics, but my concern would be that either a) no one would play a spellcaster anyway, if the effects were nasty enough; or b) the non-casting "heroes" of Primeval Thule would just kill their spellcasting comrade the first time he did anything spooky. All in all, for me it plays better in the setting if spellcasters are the bad guys.

Yeah, one thing I'm trying to avoid is a lot of work to make something less feasible. I'd also rather just have spellcasters be bad guys, but honestly, who are the "good guys" in PT? Yeah, there's "really bad guys," but it would be interesting to roleplay a PC that wants to use the power of the old ones without being truly despicable (likely no happy ending there, but the journey would be fun). I'm trying to allow the option of spellcasting classes, while making it less appealing without doing much work.

If you do end up making those changes to the spellcasting rules, it'd be cool to hear how it works out for you, though.

 

[Greg Benage]

I'd also rather just have spellcasters be bad guys, but honestly, who are the "good guys" in PT?

The reavers, the slayers and the thieves.