Prismatic Sphere at 12th Level!??!?!?

[ashockney]

Ok, somebody explain this one to me. I've never understood why WOTC designers have chosen/allowed monsters to have spellcasting capabilities that exceed their level, sometimes considerably. Maybe I'm just slow, so you explain it to me...

Monster Manual 2, page 91, Fire Weird
(other examples include things like Rakshasa and Titan from MM and Banelar from MoF)

CR 12 (should use approx 20% of a 12th level party's resources)

SA: Spells
Spells: A fire weird can cast arcane spells and divine spells from the Fire and Sun domains as an 18th level sorcerer (3 ninth level spells cast per day, 1 known).

Some options:
Sun Domain: Prismatic Sphere
Fire Domain: Elemental Swarm
Arcane spell w/Fire Subtype: Meteor Swarm

Whu-huh?!!?!?!

Ok, I'm all for making more "challenging" encounters for high level play, but how exactly does this equate? Anytime I've ever thrown in an NPC with spells "more powerful" than those of the party's, it has resulted in something very bad happening including one near TPK. Has anyone else experienced something similar? What would you do with such a thing in your campaigns?

 

[AuraSeer]

I haven't picked up the MM2 yet, but everything I've heard indicates that the CR numbers are severely screwed up. If that's an example of one of their new creatures, I can see why.

 

[Oni]

Well supposedly that sort of thing is supposed to be figured into the CR. I don't think it's really a great idea, especially when it say leads to the creature being able to summon a creature with a higher CR than its own. The CR system is fine handing out xp, but deciding the strength of an encounter really is an art that defies mathmatical formula, especially when you start having multiple designers views of what a certain challenge level is.

 

[mkletch]

It's not even like a nymph. That has a CR6 and casts spells like a 7th level druid. But it is a 7th level druid with a glass jaw: 10hp. The elemental weirds are a little more robust.

-Fletch!

 

[Crothian]

The CRs in this book are off. These spells properly used would result in a TPK unless the party was either prepared or had a very good escape route planned. This is actually something I missed in me review, but it supports the 2/5 rating I gave it.

 

[hammymchamham]

Challenge Rating does not equal level.

 

[mkletch]

Challenge Rating does not equal level.

Since a CR 12 creature is an applicable boss monster for a party of four 7-8th level characters, I have a lot lf trouble seeing those 7th or 8th level characters burning through a prismatic sphere with their non-existent cone of cold, disintegrate and passwall. Also, Elemental Swarm summons huge and greater elementals. Will an 8th level party have the +2 weapons necessary to damage them? Probably not.

Look at the larger picture: they cast spells as 18th level sorcerers. How about if this thing gates in a Balor, Pit Fiend or Solar. Meteor Swarm, anyone? WAIL OF THE BANSHEE with a Fort save DC of 25! TPK for even 9th level party, close for 10th. This thing should have a CR of at least 15 or 16.

-Fletch!

 

[hammymchamham]

I've never understood why WOTC designers have chosen/allowed monsters to have spellcasting capabilities that exceed their level,

My response was to this, and the thread title. A CR 12 creature is not a level 12 creature. A CR 57 creature is not a 57th level creature.

I haven't said the weirds CR 12 is too high, too low, or just right. All I said was a creatures level is not equal to its CR.

 

[Crothian]

My response was to this, and the thread title. A CR 12 creature is not a level 12 creature. A CR 57 creature is not a 57th level creature.

And your sort of right. HD are sort of like monster levels. They get BAB, saves, feats, skill points, for them. However, HD does not determine CR alone. It's really another subject then what we have here.

We have a CR 12 creature that has access to some very high level abiliteis. These abiliteis could easily overwelm a 12th level party if used properly.

 

[mkletch]

I've foung that it is easier to estimate what level of party a creature will simply wipe out. When you reach the breaking point, and there is a chance the party will win barely missing a TPK, add 5 to that. That should be the CR. It comes from (I'm sure most know) the DMG. What exactly is 25% of a party's resources. Too tough to calculate (25% of top-end magical weapons sundered?). But the

"The PCs should run. If they don't, they'll probably lose"

line is pretty easy to gauge. EL five levels higher than party level (and CR=EL for a single creature).

-Fletch!