Prismatic Sphere at 12th Level!??!?!?

[Kae'Yoss]

No, resources is defined as hit points, items, spells, etc. You don't usually run the risk of losing a party member until EL (or CR for a single creature) is party level +4.

You almost always run the risk of losing a party member. EL = Party level means that you lose 20% (I think it's 20, not 25) of your resources on average. It's a moderately challenging encounter for your party. But the risk is there: A Wiz13 is a normal encounter for your 13th-level party and they'll probably gun him down without to much effort. But if he casts finger of death and one of you fails his save, he's stone dead.

Also, EL = PL+5 is overpowering, meaning that they'l very probably be ripped to shreds if they stay. But even EL = PL +1 to +4 is very difficult, and "One PC might very well die. The Encounter Level is higher than the average party level. This sort of encounter may be more dangerous than an overpowering one, because it's not immediately obvious to the players that the PC's should flee." So even with EL = PL +1 you run an increased chance of losing one of your party members.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's not even like a nymph. That has a CR6 and casts spells like a 7th level druid.

Actually, nymphs don't cast spells like a 7th level druid... they "replicate druid spells as 7th level casters " as spell-like abilities.

Depending on how you read the Spell-like Abilities section on MMp7, you could interpret that to mean that nymphs can cast any 9th level druid spell at will, with any caster-level based variables using "7" as the magic number.

-Hyp.

 

[mkletch]

Actually, nymphs don't cast spells like a 7th level druid... they "replicate druid spells as 7th level casters " as spell-like abilities.

Depending on how you read the Spell-like Abilities section on MMp7, you could interpret that to mean that nymphs can cast any 9th level druid spell at will, with any caster-level based variables using "7" as the magic number.

Yes, but the average nymph has 10hp, and is best used as a roleplaying encounter regardless of party level. Otherwise, it can be killed by a stiff breeze, or an overstrong alcoholic beverage...

-Fletch!

 

[AuraSeer]

I'm not sure what the argument is anymore. Are we at least agreed that the CR value for this monster is bogus? mkletch put it well:

To me, a creature that has spells as an 18th level sorcerer, 150-200% the hit points of an 18th level sorcerer, special abilities out the wazoo (of which a sorcerer has none, and some are passive), and the possibility of using treasure it has to buff itself up is clearly superior to a vanilla 18th level sorcerer, which has a CR of 18.

I don't have the book, so if any of this assessment is in error, somebody tell me how. But if the basic premise is correct-- the monster has the spells of a Sor18, plus more hp and other abilities-- somebody was smoking crack when they assigned it CR 12. (That's regardless of what a CR really means WRT your game.)

 

[Stalker0]

Yes, but the average nymph has 10hp, and is best used as a roleplaying encounter regardless of party level. Otherwise, it can be killed by a stiff breeze, or an overstrong alcoholic beverage...

-Fletch!

Ah yes....beer. I kill more 1st level wizards that way

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't have the book, so if any of this assessment is in error, somebody tell me how. But if the basic premise is correct-- the monster has the spells of a Sor18, plus more hp and other abilities-- somebody was smoking crack when they assigned it CR 12. (That's regardless of what a CR really means WRT your game.)

Maybe the designers thought familiars were worth 6 points of CR

-Hyp.

 

[mkletch]

Maybe the designers thought familiars were worth 6 points of CR

I failed to consider that.

-Fletch!

 

[drnuncheon]

To me, a creature that has spells as an 18th level sorcerer, 150-200% the hit points of an 18th level sorcerer, special abilities out the wazoo (of which a sorcerer has none, and some are passive), and the possibility of using treasure it has to buff itself up is clearly superior to a vanilla 18th level sorcerer, which has a CR of 18.

A naked Sor18 isn't (or shouldn't be) CR18 either.

A Sor18 is going to have 130,000 gp worth of equipment that's tailored to him, while a weird is going to have about 20,000 gp worth of treasure, which might include some items it can use.

A ticked off Sor18 can hunt you down across the continent, while a weird is tied to its pool. You can walk around the corner and be nigh invulnerable to it.

A Sor18 does not go poof when a dismissal or banishment is tossed at him, cannot be turned by a cleric with the appropriate elemental domain, and isn't stopped dead by a protection from... or magic circle against... spell.

If a weird casts a prismatic sphere...so what? Now it's even more immobile, and it can't do anything to you. Walk past it, or wait it out if you're that set on killing it. It's not like the weird is going to be able to run away.

J

 

[Shard O'Glase]

A naked Sor18 isn't (or shouldn't be) CR18 either.

A Sor18 is going to have 130,000 gp worth of equipment that's tailored to him, while a weird is going to have about 20,000 gp worth of treasure, which might include some items it can use.

A ticked off Sor18 can hunt you down across the continent, while a weird is tied to its pool. You can walk around the corner and be nigh invulnerable to it.

A Sor18 does not go poof when a dismissal or banishment is tossed at him, cannot be turned by a cleric with the appropriate elemental domain, and isn't stopped dead by a protection from... or magic circle against... spell.

If a weird casts a prismatic sphere...so what? Now it's even more immobile, and it can't do anything to you. Walk past it, or wait it out if you're that set on killing it. It's not like the weird is going to be able to run away.

J

yes the sorcerer will have better equipment, and the wierds CR should take that into account. But I think you miss the point about prismatic sphere, its just an example. It could just as easily be any wiz/sor 9th level spell like wail of the banshee, gate, timestop etc. It could very easily wipe out a level 10 party just by using one spell, and that doesn't seem very CR12 to me. Heck quite frankly a naked sorcerer tied to a spot would likely wipe out a party of 12th level characters. 9th level spells are nasty, and level 12 partys should very rarely encounter them, because they tend to kill to many people in the party.

 

[ashockney]

Based on my experiences, using higher level spells against a party, then they could cast at their level has always resulted in bad things. So this example, where a 12th level party could be facing 9th level spells...very bad. I concur that a CR 12 is a poor decision.

So the next question I have for you then, is what will you do with it?

a) Use as is, but bump the CR up.
b) Use as is, with the CR, but not throw it/them against the party until at least 16th level.
c) Advance it, and bump the CR up.
d) Not use it.
e) I'm an evil DM I'll use it as is, and throw it against my 8th level party!