Prismatic Sphere at 12th Level!??!?!?

[hong]

Any wizard lacking an appropriately-worded Contingency (Fireshield) spell who dies to fire damage, DESERVES to die to fire damage.

Why only fireshield? Why not stoneskin? Or displacement, or dimension door, or mind blank or.... How many elaborate defensive layers does someone need before you admit that some attacks really are inappropriate for a given level?

Consider for a moment that if you don't have excessively powerful attack forms, you wouldn't need excessively elaborate defenses. You're putting the cart before the horse.

I've seen this exact same argument used to say vorpal wasn't overpowered, since anyone with a dancing shield of fortification could negate it. Like that made sense.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Any wizard lacking an appropriately-worded Contingency (Fireshield) spell who dies to fire damage, DESERVES to die to fire damage.

You mean "Contigency" as in the Sor/Wiz 6 Evocation spell Contigency? That is not available before 11th-level, and might not be available at all if the caster has evocation as his banned school, or is a sorcerer who doesn't want to waste a spell slot on it (OK, you said wizard).

And then the DM could ban the word "or" any. any other ambiguous meanings from contigency triggers. If he won't, I go for "If someone attacks me with elemental magic, cast protect elements with the appropriate element." And there's another thing: You must cast the spell at the same time as contigency. All variables must be set at the time of casting. Whether it's a warm shield or a chill shield is most certainly a variable.....

 

[hammymchamham]

This creature also only has an AC of 15. Any fighter worth his weight has a good chance of hitting on all 3 of his attacks. Its HP on average is just above 100. A decent 12 level fighter could deal a lot of damage in just one round.

 

[mkletch]

Looking at what was declared by ashockney (MM2 has yet to reach these far and distant shores), I can only conclude that:

It doesn't have access to ALL divine and arcane spells, casting them as a sorcerer, it casts spells with the fire sub-type.

From the MMII, p. 93
A fire weird casts arcane spells and divine spells from the Fire and Sun domains as an 18th-level sorcerer

It has the option of the divine spells from the Fire and Sun domains (the other elemental weirds have other domains), but also have access to all arcane spells. Any of the weirds can cast any 9th level arcane spell (they can only know 1, though).

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

This creature also only has an AC of 15. Any fighter worth his weight has a good chance of hitting on all 3 of his attacks. Its HP on average is just above 100. A decent 12 level fighter could deal a lot of damage in just one round.

IMO, a CR 12 creature is a grunt in a campaign for level 12 PCs. A CR 12 is the door guard. A CR 16 or 17 will be the 'boss', if there is one.

-Fletch!

 

[green slime]

IMO, a CR 12 creature is a grunt in a campaign for level 12 PCs. A CR 12 is the door guard. A CR 16 or 17 will be the 'boss', if there is one.

-Fletch!

But that isn't the measure by which WotC have used. The measure being that it should burn up 25% of the party's resources. In other words, a 12th level party should, on average, run the risk of loosing a party member in such an encounter.

Of course the die dictate what happens exactly, and much depends on preparation. But, to me, it sounds about right.

A grunt in an 12th level campaign would to me be around 8th level. "Grunts" being mere canon fodder, and not a threat to the party. The Lieutenant to Mr Bad would be around 12th-13th. Depends on how much of challenge the party needs.

 

[green slime]

Fletch most helpfully quoted the MMII:

From the MMII, p. 93
A fire weird casts arcane spells and divine spells from the Fire and Sun domains as an 18th-level sorcerer

Hmmm....

Well, like I said, it ain't in these here parts.

It could be interpreted as spells from the Fire and Sun domain. But you say all wierds have acess to 9th level arcane spells.

Casting spells X, Y, and Z as an 18th level sorcerer is not the same as being an 18th level sorcerer, but I guess you knew that.

Ah well, I guess I got nothing more to add, until the book arrives.

 

[mkletch]

But that isn't the measure by which WotC have used. The measure being that it should burn up 25% of the party's resources. In other words, a 12th level party should, on average, run the risk of loosing a party member in such an encounter.

[...] A grunt in an 12th level campaign would to me be around 8th level. "Grunts" being mere canon fodder, and not a threat to the party. The Lieutenant to Mr Bad would be around 12th-13th. Depends on how much of challenge the party needs.

No, resources is defined as hit points, items, spells, etc. You don't usually run the risk of losing a party member until EL (or CR for a single creature) is party level +4. Theoretically, 25% resources is one character, but that assumes no other characters loose a single hit point, charge from an item, potion, spell or even a single arrow. That would be a strange encounter. A party should, on average, be able to do three level-appropriate encounters and still have 25% resources remaining. That means 25% of you, 25% of me, 25% of the other two guys. But like I said, that's on average. Bad or good, luck is always a factor.

From the DMG, 10% of the encounters in an adventure should be lower than party level (Easy), 20% should be easy of handled properly (Easy with a catch), 50% should be EL=party level (Challenging), 15% should be 1-4 levels above the party (Difficult), and 5% should be 5 or more levels above the party (Overpowering). So fully half of the encounters should be EL=party. For those difficult challenges (1-4 levels above), you could use groups of up to four CR=level creatures! For Difficult, it says that "One PC might very well die." Might die for EL=party level +4 does not support your vision of the CR/EL system.

To me, a creature that has spells as an 18th level sorcerer, 150-200% the hit points of an 18th level sorcerer, special abilities out the wazoo (of which a sorcerer has none, and some are passive), and the possibility of using treasure it has to buff itself up is clearly superior to a vanilla 18th level sorcerer, which has a CR of 18. Is my logic fundamentally flawed?

-Fletch!

 

[ashockney]

Do you think this creature should be a CR 12?

1st Rd Actions: Haste/Prismatic Sphere
2nd Rd Actions: Flamestrike/Flamestrike
3rd Rd Actions: Wall of Fire (no getting away!)/Fire Storm
4th Rd Actions: Flamestrike/Flamestrike
5th Rd Actions: repeat cycle ad nauseum

Quote:
Sounds like you need PGA - Powergamers Anonymous.

-Fletch!

Response:
I'm not only client, I'm also the President!!!



Quote:
resources is defined as hit points, items, spells, etc. You don't usually run the risk of losing a party member until EL (or CR for a single creature) is party level +4.

Response:
Generally, I agree with this sentiment.

Quote:
It could be a typo.

Response:
It could be, but then they repeated it on all of the other weirds...and in the MM...and in MoF...ok, probably not.

Furthermore, this post isn't intended to be an "indictment" of MM2. As I point out in my original post, this type of thing seems to occur in MM and MoF as well. I can't figure why a designer would do something like this, can you???

One of the things proposed is that Fire is a resistance that a party should have farily easy access to. Furthermore, almost all attacks/spells are fire based, so if you build a defense, this guy becomes a one-trick pony once your 12th level party is prepped.

I could buy this...

Another reason was that a 12th level fighter could blow through this thing's 15 AC and 120 hp.

Agreed...back to Pris Sphere example above, however. Make this thing a 12th, 13th, or even 14th (fire spells only) and I'm at least somewhat believing it...with the only real defense being fire shield available by that time.

What else?

What will you do with this creature, as DM's in your campaign?

What have you done with other creatures that can cast at a higher level than the CR of the creature?

(PS - Can someone explain to me how you get "quotes" to look so nice?)

 

[green slime]

No, resources is defined as hit points, items, spells, etc. You don't usually run the risk of losing a party member until EL (or CR for a single creature) is party level +4. Theoretically, 25% resources is one character, but that assumes no other characters loose a single hit point, charge from an item, potion, spell or even a single arrow. That would be a strange encounter. A party should, on average, be able to do three level-appropriate encounters and still have 25% resources remaining. That means 25% of you, 25% of me, 25% of the other two guys. But like I said, that's on average. Bad or good, luck is always a factor.

From the DMG, 10% of the encounters in an adventure should be lower than party level (Easy), 20% should be easy of handled properly (Easy with a catch), 50% should be EL=party level (Challenging), 15% should be 1-4 levels above the party (Difficult), and 5% should be 5 or more levels above the party (Overpowering). So fully half of the encounters should be EL=party. For those difficult challenges (1-4 levels above), you could use groups of up to four CR=level creatures! For Difficult, it says that "One PC might very well die." Might die for EL=party level +4 does not support your vision of the CR/EL system.

I said "you run a risk". We ARE talking averages.

If, on average, the party looses 25% "resources" to a Party level CR, then, it implies, that you "risk" a great deal more: the die are fickle. You can suddenly be looking at 50% party "resources" (which isn't just measured in hp either; also spells memorized, potions quaffed, etc). Thus it is not unreasonable to assume Average loss = 25%, expected maximum loss (if things go badly) 1 party member. A fighter is only a Will save away from a CDG... A single die roll. Add in a few other blows to the other characters, and what was a CR7 encounter for a 7th level party seems to have wasted so much resources.

For the difficult rating it says "One PC might very well die", which to me means it is no longer just a risk, but a highly likely event. But that depends on your DM, and your luck.

To me, a creature that has spells as an 18th level sorcerer, 150-200% the hit points of an 18th level sorcerer, special abilities out the wazoo (of which a sorcerer has none, and some are passive), and the possibility of using treasure it has to buff itself up is clearly superior to a vanilla 18th level sorcerer, which has a CR of 18. Is my logic fundamentally flawed?

IF what you write is true, then yes, CR12 does seem a tad low. However, remove the access to all arcane spells, and allow only those with the fire descriptor, from the Fire or Sun domain, and it seems much tamer.... Like I said B4: ain't no MMII in this neck of the woods.