Problem: character deaths are leading to enormous party wealth

[Mark]

Where has such a official clarification been made regarding the equipment and shadow spawns? I've always worked from the premise that since it makes specific reference to equipment becoming ghostly when it come to becoming a ghost, that in the case of shadow spawns the equipment simply drops where it is. As to the body becoming a shadow, that's up to the DM but my interpretation has always been that the body becomes the shadow. To each his own, I suppose.

 

[Conaill]

Regarding keeping the levels balanced... I beleive FRCS uses an alternative way to calculate experience, where lower level characters gain more than higher ones from a shared experience. I've seen this recommended in several places as a more fair way to hand out XP, plus it tends to auto-balance the levels in the party. You might want to check this out.

I may have missed it in you long post, but I don't think you addressed the possibility of simply reducing the treasure amounts after a PC death. In general, you should be keeping an eye on the party wealth level and making small adjustments to treasure accordingly anyway. This is just a more direct version. I like it because it also gives a little metagaming encouragement to the players to avoid getting other PCs killed...

 

[Kalendraf]

Nope. Scratch that rule in your case as it would only exacerbate the problem you have. At the least, suspend the rule for a while.

It seems that there should always be some kind of penalty for dying, and at this level the monetary cost of a raise dead is far from being a penalty. Otherwise, without having some type of experience loss, it seems like it encourages reckless behavior by the weaker characters.

Are these items they are crafting for themselves to use, or are the other members of the party asking for these items to be made?

For the most part, the crafted items have been for the characters themselves. They have only made a few items for other party members.

Are you making sure to throw diverse groups at them, and slyly pairing them off so the tough guy gets the tough opponents and the lower fellas get the easier pickins? That may help keep everyone challenged a little more.

I try to do this, but it's not always easy. I tend to run a lot of pre-made adventures since I don't have time to always create my own material. I notice that many of these published adventures don't throw very diverse groups at the party in any particular encounter, but they do tend to use a diverse amount of stuff over the entire adventure. In general, I don't edit these encounters very much, usually only adding or subtracting a level or so, or adding or dropping a creature to keep the EL balanced for the party. This is definitely an area for improvement in my own DM'ing, as well as an area I'd like to see the publishers improve on as well.

It might be worthwhile having NPCs and creatures that might carry magic to stop fighting to the death.

I actually have a lot of monsters escape in this campaign. Once a baddie gets to under 50% life, there's a chance they'll flee, and this chance increases as the life total drops. Intelligent foes (which are the ones with magic) are those most concerned with self-preservation. The party has gotten better at not letting monsters escape, but I still have managed to have several fly/dig/swim/teleport away before dying.

In the future, you might also consider having more items that work with charges, so they aren't permanent items, even if those types of items normally function as permanent items. If planned treasure in a module calls for a ring of invisibility, change it to a wand of invisibility with twenty charges. Things like that can help to even things out sooner or later.

I actually hand out a lot of potions/scrolls/wands and other charged items. Many of the "problem" items have been purchased or crafted. I use the standard gold-piece limit for cities regarding what items can be easily found. Once the party got teleport spells, they hopped off the the largest metropolis they knew of and bought up a bunch of stuff. And the whole party spent 2 months on hold for the wizard, sorcerer and cleric to craft a bunch of items.

I know that as DM, I can control these things to a greater degree than I have. I could rule that certain items still aren't available for sale in the big city. And I could come up with some kind of emergency that interrupts their item crafting. However, they had suffered thru a huge number of back-to-back adventures and it made sense for them to have earned a few months of vacation.

You may have to be unfair in how you use these tactics so that you are attacking only the PCs that can take it, but if it helps to even things out a bit, it couldn't hurt. As long as you don't do it every single time it shouldn't be overly upsetting to the players.

I actually do this when the opportunity presents itself. I tend to go after the tougher characters with the tougher beasts, and try to let the weaker ones find ways to pick on the weaker characters. Often, the party pulls out something to break things up (unexpected moves, summoned creatures, spells) in a way that causes the monsters to have to adjust and switch targets.

I agree. You may want to make sure the party has an item that functions as an alarm, to some degree, in the Ranger's absence.

They actually have one for their campsite. A magical box of alarm that triggers if a foe gets too close. However, they seem to only remember to set it up about 20% of the time when they camp. This item is of no help when they are moving, so stumbling into an ambush is still a problem for them. Giving them an item to prevent ambushes seems too powerful, as I still want them to get ambushed sometimes.

Being so lethal in combat might also be giving them a false sense of superiority.

I believe that is one of the problems. Even when I've managed to strike fear into their hearts, it seems forgotten in the next session. At least it seems they are starting to dread Hell somewhat. Hopefully that will lead to more cautionary behavior as the adventure proceeds.

 

[TiQuinn]

I see a problem with this. If the character is already below the party level, then dying could turn into a level gain. For example, Party is 10th, new character enters at 9th. Rest of party levels to 11th, but this guy is still 9th (missed a session, behind on RP exp, etc) then the new guy dies and comes back in at 10th?!? I'm a firm believer that character deaths should have some kind of exp penalty, and a half level loss at a minimum seems fair.

Characters have to be dropping like flies in order for this to become such a huge problem. Exactly how many character deaths have occurred, and what's the average length of time between them? You might want to consider NOT killing off party members for a little while to balance. That is probably your best way of fixing this problem.

 

[Mark]

It seems that there should always be some kind of penalty for dying, and at this level the monetary cost of a raise dead is far from being a penalty. Otherwise, without having some type of experience loss, it seems like it encourages reckless behavior by the weaker characters.

I've rarely ever found a player who wanted to roll up a new character so much that they were purposefully reckless with the one they had just taken the trouble to make. It used to happen sometimes in 74-76 when we would roll stats in order and had to play whatever the stats dictated, but those were deadly games anyway so it seldom required reckless behavior.

I've never liked the idea of a penalty for dying, to be honest. Dying is bad enough on its own, IMO, and I would rather that the players take more risks and do things heroically, than to worry that they will fall behind in the game if they charge over to help their buddy at the risk of their own lives.

For the most part, the crafted items have been for the characters themselves. They have only made a few items for other party members.

Such a scroll still might find the higher level character offering up his XP for the new items in the future. Maybe you could ask the players about such a thing before the next session and see how they respond.

I try to do this, but it's not always easy. I tend to run a lot of pre-made adventures since I don't have time to always create my own material. I notice that many of these published adventures don't throw very diverse groups at the party in any particular encounter, but they do tend to use a diverse amount of stuff over the entire adventure. In general, I don't edit these encounters very much, usually only adding or subtracting a level or so, or adding or dropping a creature to keep the EL balanced for the party. This is definitely an area for improvement in my own DM'ing, as well as an area I'd like to see the publishers improve on as well.

You might look for creatures that level up and adjust some up and some down where you can. Other methods to adjust modules easily is to swap out better or lesser weapons, raise or lower hit points so some in an encounter are tougher while others are weaker, and if a whole encounter is weak, throw a couple of potions down the throat of one creature in a group and make him the current leader of the encountered creature group.

I actually have a lot of monsters escape in this campaign. Once a baddie gets to under 50% life, there's a chance they'll flee, and this chance increases as the life total drops. Intelligent foes (which are the ones with magic) are those most concerned with self-preservation. The party has gotten better at not letting monsters escape, but I still have managed to have several fly/dig/swim/teleport away before dying.

Sounds like you have most of my suggestions covered already. I'll keep trying to come up with a few while this thread survives.

I actually hand out a lot of potions/scrolls/wands and other charged items. Many of the "problem" items have been purchased or crafted. I use the standard gold-piece limit for cities regarding what items can be easily found. Once the party got teleport spells, they hopped off the the largest metropolis they knew of and bought up a bunch of stuff. And the whole party spent 2 months on hold for the wizard, sorcerer and cleric to craft a bunch of items.

I know that as DM, I can control these things to a greater degree than I have. I could rule that certain items still aren't available for sale in the big city. And I could come up with some kind of emergency that interrupts their item crafting. However, they had suffered thru a huge number of back-to-back adventures and it made sense for them to have earned a few months of vacation.

I'm sure at the time it seemed reasonable, and it sounds it now, too. It's that darned influx when someone dies, and I guess you just have to drop encounter treasures to the floor while the balance comes back. *shrug*

I actually do this when the opportunity presents itself. I tend to go after the tougher characters with the tougher beasts, and try to let the weaker ones find ways to pick on the weaker characters. Often, the party pulls out something to break things up (unexpected moves, summoned creatures, spells) in a way that causes the monsters to have to adjust and switch targets.

The best laid plans, eh? While you can only go so far to try and give them a chance. After a while it's going to fall to the dice anyway, and I suppose if worse comes to worse you'll just have to fudge them a bit more if you ever want them to see the highest levels before next year at this time (guessing by the rate of advancement you described).

They actually have one for their campsite. A magical box of alarm that triggers if a foe gets too close. However, they seem to only remember to set it up about 20% of the time when they camp. This item is of no help when they are moving, so stumbling into an ambush is still a problem for them. Giving them an item to prevent ambushes seems too powerful, as I still want them to get ambushed sometimes.

Well, if they're covered while at rest, that's half the battle. You may have to remind them, even if not explicitedly, by asking what precautions they are taking while camping. Also, I had a group once that was lax and suckers for ambush. In an effort to get them to pay more attention to things, I spent some time with them on their marching order. I asked what their standard marching order was, what it was for wide open spaces, what is was for tight areas, and what it was for when they wished to be on very strong defense. After that time whenever I asked which marching order they were in, they almost always said it was the very strong defense stance regardless of the circumstance.

I believe that is one of the problems. Even when I've managed to strike fear into their hearts, it seems forgotten in the next session. At least it seems they are starting to dread Hell somewhat. Hopefully that will lead to more cautionary behavior as the adventure proceeds.

Start a session by asking "Who's going to die tonight?"

 

[Mark]

Characters have to be dropping like flies in order for this to become such a huge problem. Exactly how many character deaths have occurred, and what's the average length of time between them? You might want to consider NOT killing off party members for a little while to balance. That is probably your best way of fixing this problem.

That's all described (in great detail) in his post a few posts above your own. Look for the long post with the numbered entries/paragraphs at the end.

 

[TiQuinn]

That's all described (in great detail) in his post a few posts above your own. Look for the long post with the numbered entries/paragraphs at the end.

Sorry, I skipped some posts because they were getting quite long. But I did notice a couple of things. It sounds like some players are opting to roll up new characters rather than have them raised. Is that realistic? Seems to me in those cases where players "choose" to roll up new characters that they should take a larger penalty than just a 1/2 level.

Another solution: make the next treasure they find be a bunch of raise dead scrolls.

 

[Mark]

Sorry, I skipped some posts because they were getting quite long. But I did notice a couple of things. It sounds like some players are opting to roll up new characters rather than have them raised. Is that realistic? Seems to me in those cases where players "choose" to roll up new characters that they take a larger penalty than just a 1/2 level.

Another solution: make the next treasure they find be a bunch of raise dead scrolls.

Well, it's all about the fun, anyway. If they die and have a cool idea for another character, why not roll a new one. The campaign he is running has lasted two years and will probably go another year and a half. That's a long time to play the same character. Some folks like variety and who's it really hurting? It's not like they're sacrificing the characters, they're just choosing to go a new direction if they do happen to die. No biggie, IMO.

 

[TiQuinn]

Well, it's all about the fun, anyway. If they die and have a cool idea for another character, why not roll a new one. The campaign he is running has lasted two years and will probably go another year and a half. That's a long time to play the same character. Some folks like variety and who's it really hurting? It's not like they're sacrificing the characters, they're just choosing to go a new direction if they do happen to die. No biggie, IMO.

That's true, but if that's the case, then why worry about the amount of magic items? Perhaps the simplest solution is to present this same problem to the players (as he did to us on this board). Ask them what they think the solution should be. One thing that they can do is keep a certain amount of wealth, and have to dispose of the rest. It's a heck of a lot easier than trying to find an in-game solution that appeases everyone and fits the bill of being realistic.

 

[Thimble the Squit]

Character deaths and party wealth

Kalendraf: I have to say that, despite the longwinded nature of this discussion, I have been thoroughly enjoying the debate, particularly between yourself and Mark. This is a topic that deserves attention and you both it due thought and consideration.

You're clearly a responsible and articulate DM and, by the indications from your ranger player who's been standing out to allow others to catch up, it sounds like your players are pretty responsible too. I would suggest (as others have) that you discuss this with the players as well; they might surprise you.

In our group, I'm always the one who keeps dying -- because of terrible rolls and horrendous luck usually; I'm the antithesis of your party's ranger (just check my sig, said at least once in every Ars Magica session, usually after my first roll of the afternoon). As a result, I'm intimately aware of the problem of introducing new equipment to the group for each new character I bring in -- and this problem is especially bad in our group 'cos our DM is quite tight with resurrection, as well as being rather deadly with his encounters.

For my latest introduction, a 7th-level wizard, I spent the significant portion of my wealth on spells for my grimoire; so, yes, whilst I do have a huge number of spells to choose from, my actual power level within the group is not radically improved, even by getting a couple of goodies shared out from the corpse of my last guy.

And, as Mark suggests, I don't think you do need to worry overmuch, as long as you approach the situation sensibly and patiently (as you've obviously been doing) -- things will balance out if you hang back on the treasure for a couple of months.

Ultimately, though, trust your players. They want to have a great game as much as you do.