Problem: character deaths are leading to enormous party wealth

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, then you have to wonder why the character wants to screw over his legal heirs.

"Hell, I started adventuring in the first place to get away from my legal heirs..."

...and even with that one, well, any will can be contested.

What are they going to contest? If I sell you my car for a dollar fifty - signed, witnessed, legally binding sale - and then in two days I have a heart attack and die, what claim do my heirs have on my - your - car?

Sounds interesting - what's it about? A legal duelist?

The legal system in Perimadeia is based on trial by combat. However, someone is only required to represent themselves in certain classes of case. For most others, you hire a lawyer...

Consequently, lawyers are the best swordsmen around...

-Hyp.

 

[The_Gneech]

'Cause it's more resource-effective to bury him & start a new character.

That's as may be, but would YOU want to go adventuring with somebody who would just let you croak and take your stuff? I certainly wouldn't join an adventuring party with that kind of reputation!

-The Gneech

 

[tonym]

The extra magical equipment floating around is making it much harder to challenge this group.

Well, speaking as a Player, if my DM hinted that designing challenging encounters was getting 'harder' because the PCs have too much magic, I'd wipe the cold sweat from my forehead and shout, "KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!! YOU ARE THE KING!!" In other words, I'd hope my DM would not do anything heavy-handed to my PC to make things easier for him to design encounters.

I mean, I expect encounters to range from cakewalks to extremely challenging stuff. I really don't expect every battle to be a masterpiece of design which ends with the whole party teetering on Death's Door and thankful to be alive.

If my DM said he feels bad about killing the PCs more often, I'd say I expect PCs to die more often at high level because the monsters are so frikkin deadly. And if he said that he was afraid I would blame him for my PC's death if an encounter proved too tough, I'd say, "No way, I always blame the dice."

Heck, I'd say anything to keep him from taking away my magical goodies.


Tony M

 

[Kalendraf]

That's the problem, right? But as a logical consequence of 5 we have:

6. Fewer adventurers die (they are better equipped for challenges of their ECL).
7. Party gains experience, and go up levels instead of dying.
8. Party treasure is now closer to average.

In theory, this is the way things should work out. However, what seems to happen is somewhat different. Here's the situation I'm faced with:

There are 5 characters, all which have adventured long enough to have earned about 13 levels worth of exp and wealth (110K gp). However, each has died at least 1 time, and some of them have died multiple times, so their resulting character levels are currently 10th, 10th, 11th, 11th, 12th. Also, let's assume that the wealth has been somehow "redistributed" so that the 110K gold per character is still in effect in spite of some characters coming and going. Next, one of the 10th level (actually 10.5 level) characters dies. The remaining 4 divide up the 110k of wealth (27.5K per character), and wind up with close to 137.5k per character which is rapidly approaching the wealth of a 14th level character. This may not sound all that bad, but it is. Finally a new 10th level character joins up with 49K worth of stuff. To get their experience back in line with treasure, they are going to need to gain 3 to 4 levels of experience. At the rate they've been progressing, that might be around the December timeframe. That's a lot of weekly playing sessions to work thru before reaching equilibrium.

It is true that they should have an easier time surviving the next bunches of encounters with the extra loot. But the challenges become almost too easy. This leads them to overextend themselves ("Let's keep going, I'm barely hurt, wizard still has half his spells, and we whipped those last 3 groups easy"), and they stumble into a tough ecnounter. They wind up with yet another character death, putting them right back where they started in terms of exp.

I mentioned the challenges are getting harder to judge. Both of the recent character deaths have come at the hands of EL9 encounters (3xCR6, 8xCR3), but they usually plow thru EL9's, EL10's, and EL11 with ease. I've even seen them mow down hard EL13 and EL14 encounters w/o breaking a sweat. My hunch is that the items are related here, making many of these encounter easier than you'd expect, but sometimes the items aren't much help, and that's when they get plastered. At this point, I wouldn't be shocked to see this group pull off a 1-turn kill against an EL16, but then find a way to walk into a Total Party Kill vs. an EL4!



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[Kalendraf]

Again IMO if you can't scale encounters to a comfortable level based on the players actual capability than you need to get more DMing practice. I am a mediocre DM and even I can scale encounters

I thought I was pretty good at doing this. I've been DM'ing for almost 20 years now, and have a couple years of d20 under my belt. Before the last two sessions, the deathrate had been very low as well, as I'd improved my skill in balancing the encounters. But the two most recent party deaths (1 in each of the last 2 play sessions) have made me a bit more leary.

The party is roughly 11th level, with both a Cleric and Paladin. I figured that a group of 8 shadows (CR3, leading to an EL9 encounter) would be a fairly easy one for them to handle. In other recent adventures, they've encounter multiple non-corporeal undead, but have handled them so easily that I was beginning to doubt they were even worth the exp I was handing out. But this time was way different. The monsters hid well and surprised the party. Several of them flanked the cleric who was dropped to well below 0-strength in a single surprise attack. This is the same cleric who was wearing a greater cloak of displacement. Somehow he managed to blow all but one of his deflection rolls. I rolled well for the monsters hide and initiative, but rolled merely average attacks and strength drains, so there was nothing really out of the ordinary here for the monsters. I'm wondering how many other DM's have managed to slay a 10th level cleric with shadows?

The other encounter that lead to a character death was against 3 Large Ice Stalkers (CR6, from Hell in Freeport adventure). Again, this is just an EL9 encounter which should be pretty simple for the party. Instead, it killed a character and left several others badly wounded. I do question whether these creatures are actually just a CR6. In fact, I even posted that same question on the Green Ronin board after that night's adventure. The party has now faced them a few times and in each case the stalkers did a bunch of extra damage via flanking/sneak attack, so I am beginning to think the CR6 is too low for these creatures. If so, it would make this encounter with 3 of them higher than an EL9 and that could explain that resulting character death a bit better.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Bizarre all-knowing legal system? Where was that from again? We're talking about the guy's brother suing to get his stuff, rather than let those no-good adventurers (the ones that got him killed) loot his body and get away with giving his rightful heirs a paltry few gold.

I guess if you think that the guy's brother knowing he was a successful adventurer is "bizarre" and "all-knowing", you might have a point...but I don't really regard it as all that unusual. (Although I don't have a brother, so maybe I'm way off base.)

Knowing he adventures? Sure. Knowing he has something to show for it? Maybe - after all, he's a good for nothing adventurer. Since when did they ever make anything of themselves? Knowing precisely what it is that he owns and being able to get a legitimate writ issued for every item? Doubtful at best.

And as for "they won't hand it over unless they're stupid" - well, if they don't, then their alignments just took a big step towards both chaos and evil, for not respecting the customs and laws of the land, and for acting in a selfish manner to the detriment of others. For some people that won't matter much, but for others, it could cause problems. ("I wonder why I can't regain spells...")
J

Except that in the example they were part of a company, and the contract with that company was legitimate.

By your logic, a party who don't donate all their wealth to the needy are evil, and a party who don't follow every law they encounter (even those which are unjust or clearly corrupt or self-serving) are chaotic.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It is true that they should have an easier time surviving the next bunches of encounters with the extra loot. But the challenges become almost too easy. This leads them to overextend themselves ("Let's keep going, I'm barely hurt, wizard still has half his spells, and we whipped those last 3 groups easy"), and they stumble into a tough ecnounter. They wind up with yet another character death, putting them right back where they started in terms of exp.

If they KEEP doing this, then this really is their own fault.

Perhaps you might like to point this out to them? Bear in mind that you have some extra information they don't have - like when the harder challenges are coming, and the fact that they are in fact harder. Don't do it during the game - just mention that they keep running themselves dry, and if there's no real time pressure, it's just as easy to rest up a bit as to press on.

I mentioned the challenges are getting harder to judge. Both of the recent character deaths have come at the hands of EL9 encounters (3xCR6, 8xCR3), but they usually plow thru EL9's, EL10's, and EL11 with ease. I've even seen them mow down hard EL13 and EL14 encounters w/o breaking a sweat. My hunch is that the items are related here, making many of these encounter easier than you'd expect, but sometimes the items aren't much help, and that's when they get plastered. At this point, I wouldn't be shocked to see this group pull off a 1-turn kill against an EL16, but then find a way to walk into a Total Party Kill vs. an EL4!
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My hunch would be that it's not necessarily the AMOUNT of items, but their nature. When you design challenges (or rate existing challenges) you need to take into account certain interactions between the character's abilities and their foes abilities.

eg. A colossal scorpion is CR 11. The general consensus is that if the party ploughs into melee with it, then it's CR is significantly HIGHER than this. However, since it lacks anything beyond meaty close-combat attacks, a party who rely on ranged attacks or a party who can fly, or a party who uses some intelligent tactics can take it out with minimal expenditure at levels as low as 5th. A +5 sword (worth 50,000) is not nearly as effective in this encounter as a set of wings of flying (worth 5,500).

Conversely against a group of spectres, the wings of flying would be near-useless unless you've got a magic weapon.

Additionally, the ability to ambush an opponent should be a significant boost to a creature's ability.

In the case of your shadows, that boost is probably about +2.

This leads to the group using up roughly 20% of their resources killing the shadows - or in this case 100% of a single party member.

 

[David Argall]

1. As suggested, talk it over with the players. They are the ones who will have to live with your rules and you may find they have serious opinions you will have to live with.

2. The permanent death of a PC should hurt. No way it should be the same penalty as a temporary one. Even a full level loss is small. Under 2e, I always opted for starting at 1st level.
[under 3e, it's a lot harder to catch up, so one solution is to replace the XP chart with something that requires more XP at higher levels, thus allowing the low level to catch up quicker. This also has the benefit of slowing down the race to epic levels.]

3. I have had no problems with PCs always having an NPC wife, kin, society, that claims all goods of the dead PC. [The objection that the PCs can fight a claim is clear nonsense. They may be 10th level, but there are 20th levels walking around. Now, the party trying to keep the goodies might make for a good adventure, but you need to make them work for their loot, whether from monsters or PC.]

 

[Mark]

First off you have to remove the problem not the symptoms. Start replacement characters at the level of the lowest level survivor. Eventually they'll balance back up again for you. Let's face it, a penalty for dying is just as artificial as any of the solutions that attacks the symptoms, so lose it. What are you really discouraging, anyway?

I assume that after so much time playing the game that the players are beyond doing stupid things (mostly ), so that can't be the reason. It causes YOU more trouble than it causes them and those troubles just get greater as the campaign moves along further. It stalls the campaign, which isn't fun for you or the players. Another problem with such a penalty is that it discourages acts of bravery in hopeless situations which takes away from the heroic nature of the game. Once the whole party has run through a handful of deaths, they'll all be back to the same level and dying simply brings them back at the level of the whole group. Win/Win.

To bring the wealth level back in balance, alternate treasure seems to be in order for a period of time. A "coupon" solution can be useful but need not be overt. Have the group find expensive items that (perhaps after some divination) are discovered to belong to someone that wants them back, I.E. the chalice of Soenso, the honorable Baron of Zumplaize. Such items can be engraved with the name of the rightful owner or the heirs. An item can come in a case or box with an inscription denoting its owner.

Returning such items can entitle the party to medical assistance from the baron's staff or free but incredibly lavish lodgings next time they travel through his territory. Other such items that need to be returned could gain the party valuable information, a free resurrection, the goodwill of a small army that will pledge to guard an area for them sometime down the road. Make treasure more along the lines of barter for favors anytime the wealth level is out of whack. Once it is back in line with the standard, start handing out normal treasure again.

Another way to reduce PC wealth is to have unusual economies. Nibble away at their wealth with prices that are 110% - 120% of the standard. Any place where there is some sort of excuse for higher prices, such as a region where the taxes on merchants is higher, is a good reason to raise prices...but not so much so as to raise the alarm with players that you are milking them. Over time it'll put a dent into things and if it is done judiciously it won't seem like a personal assault on the PCs by the DM.

Equipment needs regular replacement. Heels break, straps snap, and (here's a biggie) mounts are not immune to attack. Maybe they’ll use mending spells but wealth is not the only resource that can be drained to help bring a game back to balance. Also, when creatures attack a camp they don't tip-toe through the gear that is lying all around and things should be broken fairly regularly. You don’t have to describe each and every bit of the destruction, just be sure to give them a description of the aftermath. If the players don't like dealing with this in-game, simply explain that they can either buck up on some sort of regular basis or you can do the bookkeeping and reduce treasure amounts a tad to compensate for such loses. Then, do so.

The price of information is never written in stone. NPCs have detect magic and when they know that a group is well-heeled they will take advantage of them. Find opportunities to present the players with a choice between knowing something for a high price, or going into a situation blind. They won't bite all the time but when they do they won't complain because the choice will be their own. An NPC that steals from PCs is in danger of retribution but an NPC who talks PCs out of their wealth by selling them something they want is someone the PCs may visit whenever they have extra wealth and need information. This then becomes a semi-regular way to help you drain some wealth from the PCs.

Where do the PCs call home? Do they tithe their respective church? Does the local nobility require service of them on a yearly basis...or in lieu of such service are they given the choice to purchase their way out of it? Standard fare would be to suggest the PCs need not guard a border for the Duke if they pay him enough so he can hire regular guards to substitute for the service they owe him. They can make "in kind" donations of magic items and there's no reason for a noble not to ask for specific items after having his minions determine what they have. If they don't wish to part with the 5,000 gp item he covets, he may begrudgingly take two other items that total 7,000 gp in its place. Again, it becomes a negotiation that plays into your hands and it is something the PCs have a hand in determining so they shouldn't feel as bad as if you just rust monster them out of an item.

It's been my experience that single, quick fixes lead to more problems so what you need to do is get into a regimen. None of the tools should be used in a heavy-handed way. No single method should be seen as the one solution. Take back what they should not have piecemeal with a variety of the above ploys. After a short time, when things are back to balance, you can keep it that way quite easily.

 

[Thresher]

The nightmare that was last weekend.

We died a lot, unlucky dice rolls, retarded bash-fest of a module called CoTSQ and a few random encounters tore us to to bits.
I think at last count there is 1 sole origional party member left, a paladin, which lives up to their usual standards of being "well 'ard".

So we're looking at the 4 dead PC's and 1 dead cohort at the end of the day and we figure, if the paladin dies, we're buggering off out of this module and James Wyatt can get a dog up him for pretending to be a writer. As is we're outgunned, outleveled and just dont cut it at the newly created levels we are, but we do have a lot of magical gear lying around and to be honest, it wont make a lick of difference to our PC's survival. And theres no way to get back our characters that bought the farm without the half-level xp loss anyway.