Problematic Spells

[Sadrik]

Here is a list of spells that I deemed problematic for a spell system that allows for continuous castings all day long. I would like to figure out which spells are "broken" using an open ended spell system. Should some come off of this or should some be added?

Sadrik

Problematic Spell List
Animate Dead
Arcane Mark
Astral Projection
Atonement
Augury
Awaken
Baleful Polymorph
Banishment
Bestow Curse
Binding
Blasphemy
Blindness/Deafness
Clone
Commune
Commune with Nature
Consecrate
Continual Flame
Control Weather
Create Greater Undead
Cure Critical Wounds
Cure Light Wounds
Cure Minor Wounds
Cure Moderate Wounds
Cure Serious Wounds
Desecrate
Detect Chaos
Detect Evil
Detect Good
Detect Law
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Snares and Pits
Dictum
Dimensional Door
Disintegration
Dismissal
Divination
Fabricate
Feeblemind
Find the Path
Flesh to Stone
Forbiddance
Gate
Geas/Quest
Glyph of Warding
Glyph of Warding, Greater
Hallow
Heal
Holy Word
Identify
Illusionary Wall
Imprisonment
Insanity
Legend Lore
Limited Wish
Magic Jar
Magic Mouth
Modify Memory
Move Earth
Nightmare
Permanency
Permanent Image
Planar Ally
Planar Ally, Greater
Planar Ally, Lesser
Planar Binding
Planar Binding, Greater
Planar Binding, Lesser
Plane Shift
Programmed Image
Raise Dead
Refuge
Regenerate
Reincarnation
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Disease
Remove Paralysis
Restoration
Restoration, Greater
Restoration, Lesser
Resurrection
Sepia Snake Sigil
Simulacrum
Spellstaff
Teleport
Teleport Object
Teleport, Greater
Teleportation Circle
Temporal Stasis
Time Stop
True Resurrection
Unhallow
Vision
Wall of Iron
Wall of Stone
Wish
Word of Chaos
Word of Recall

 

[airwalkrr]

That's a pretty big list of spells. I see two options here if you want to go with an unlimited spellcasting system. The first is to fix each spell individually so that it is balanced in such a system (perhaps an expensive MC), but that is quite complicated. The second is to create an "unlimited" spellcasting system that provides some motivation to not cast your best spells early and often.

 

[Sadrik]

That's a pretty big list of spells. I see two options here if you want to go with an unlimited spellcasting system. The first is to fix each spell individually so that it is balanced in such a system (perhaps an expensive MC), but that is quite complicated. The second is to create an "unlimited" spellcasting system that provides some motivation to not cast your best spells early and often.

I've got the system what I need though is to discuss the spells I have chosen for their inclusion or not on this list. For instance should: holy word, unholy word, dictum and word of chaos be on the list? What about magic mouth? What about Banishment and Dissmissal? Control Weather? What about the auto "detect" spells- should they become like "find" traps (basically make it not automatic?

And from a broad sense: should conjuration (teleport), and conjuration (healing), and some forms of telling the future kinds of divination be limited?

Basically, I picked out spells that would create a permanent effect.

Sadrik

 

[smootrk]

All you really need to do is put additional component requirements for these spells. Adding XP, Gold, or Special Materials (ones that aren't just assumed to be in a Spell component bag). You could also add other ritualistic components, increased casting times, or the use of cooperative-casting mechanics to help limit the actual use in your campaign.

Another idea with continuously having spells available is to use a casting skill check mechanic (I saw one included in the deadlands d20 game). Essentially, there is a casting skill that the character must take. The DC for sucessful casting is 15 + (2*Spell Level), with natural 20 granting a casting bonus of some type, and a 1 bestowing a very negative consequence. It seemed like a very reasonable way to deal with casting.

 

[Spatzimaus]

There's a third way to look at it. Unlimited PER DAY doesn't mean unlimited PER ENCOUNTER. You could easily make a system where a Wizard gets a far lower number of spell slots, but only needs to spend 15 minutes meditating to recharge all of them, and can do so as many times per day as he wants. For instance, what if a hypothetical level 10 Wizard got 1 5th-level slot, 2 4th-level, 2 3rd-level, 3 2nd-level, and 4 1st-level slots, but could cast unlimited cantrips? That's barely enough slots for a single encounter, especially if you're loading a couple utility spells in the low-level slots. But after each, he can refill and possibly change his selection.

At that point, many of your "problem" spells become a matter of personal taste. Is the ability to cast hundreds of cure light wounds each day really so bad, when you'd get the same effect from an item with Fast Healing 1? You listed unlimited detect evil as a problem one, but Paladins can do that one already. Also, any XP-using spell (wish, for instance), by definition, isn't a problem, since you won't be casting them at will. So what's left, and why is it so bad? Why is baleful polymorph at will a problem when fireball isn't?

I've played a system where spellcasting was effectively unlimited in this manner for most spells, due to a "drain" system that prevented a caster from just repeatedly unloading huge spells all at once. But, there was nothing stopping the caster from using tons of low-level stuff outside of combat. The only real effect it had was that as DM I never had to worry about if I was throwing too many encounters at the players in a single day; they'd almost always be fully healed and restocked before the next one.

 

[Sadrik]

All you really need to do is put additional component requirements for these spells. Adding XP, Gold, or Special Materials (ones that aren't just assumed to be in a Spell component bag). You could also add other ritualistic components, increased casting times, or the use of cooperative-casting mechanics to help limit the actual use in your campaign.

That is an interesting notion. Have all of them available for casting but give these spells a component requirment. How I have it set up now the caster can recover their magic points nearly as many times as they want every day but every time they do they recieve fewer spell points. Then, when they cast a problematic spell they also lower their magic points for the day. In effect prematurely lowering their maximum pool of magic points for the day. I think some of the spells could be "problematic" (following the rules I just outlined) and some of them can add other components. For instance I dont want healing spells to have an xp, gold or special material but I do want to limit the maximum number of healing spells that can be cast every day.

Another idea with continuously having spells available is to use a casting skill check mechanic (I saw one included in the deadlands d20 game). Essentially, there is a casting skill that the character must take. The DC for sucessful casting is 15 + (2*Spell Level), with natural 20 granting a casting bonus of some type, and a 1 bestowing a very negative consequence. It seemed like a very reasonable way to deal with casting.

I have seen this system in other systems too. It adds a roll though... It does work well in a system that allows for unlimited spell casting though. IE give successive castings a penalty on the rolls etc.

Sadrik

 

[Sadrik]

There's a third way to look at it. Unlimited PER DAY doesn't mean unlimited PER ENCOUNTER. You could easily make a system where a Wizard gets a far lower number of spell slots, but only needs to spend 15 minutes meditating to recharge all of them, and can do so as many times per day as he wants. For instance, what if a hypothetical level 10 Wizard got 1 5th-level slot, 2 4th-level, 2 3rd-level, 3 2nd-level, and 4 1st-level slots, but could cast unlimited cantrips? That's barely enough slots for a single encounter, especially if you're loading a couple utility spells in the low-level slots. But after each, he can refill and possibly change his selection.

Right now, I have it so that it takes 5 minutes to refresh (do you really want the casters "recharging" after every combat for 15 minutes?). I am using the spells per day chart as the spells that they have readied. I agree the point of the system is to give them enough spell points so that they have enough for an encounter and that is it. (I am using a point system rather than a slot system)

At that point, many of your "problem" spells become a matter of personal taste. Is the ability to cast hundreds of cure light wounds each day really so bad, when you'd get the same effect from an item with Fast Healing 1? You listed unlimited detect evil as a problem one, but Paladins can do that one already. Also, any XP-using spell (wish, for instance), by definition, isn't a problem, since you won't be casting them at will. So what's left, and why is it so bad? Why is baleful polymorph at will a problem when fireball isn't?

Ah, the meat of my post! I think it is a problem to be able to cast 100's of CLW without dropping the small token amount of money on a wand to do it. I listed all of the "detect" spells as problematic because they were automatic and can all be very annoying for a DM. I could be swayed to concede the point on those though. However I need more swaying...

In a similar vein though spells like augury and more advanced versions should be "problematic". Agreed?

Wish and those similar spells with an XP or even an expensive gp component could be removed. I'll go through and edit my first post. Casters will only use these in a very tough pinch and they are already taking a pretty significat hit.

Baleful polymorph makes a permanent change. I made anything that gives a permanent negative effect a problematic spell. Spells in a similar vein: bestow curse, blindness/deafness.

The only real effect it had was that as DM I never had to worry about if I was throwing too many encounters at the players in a single day.

Couldnt have said it better myself, it is a much better way to play D&D.

Sadrik