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3E/3.5 Problems with 3.5 I don't wanna see in 4th

Ninja-to

First Post
Here's my list of 'don't do's' and wishes for 4E. These problems were a major headache and in some cases broken enough to ruin encounters. I know at least a few have been mentioned before, but for lack of a Search button, here they are again in a new thread, with others.


1. Darkness spells casting 'shadowy illumination'. Please make it 'dark'...!
2. Invisibility. Where to begin. Either start giving saves for this spell, or create much more readily available methods of overcoming it. This has always been a problematic game mechanic.
3. Ethereal/Incorporeal/Gaseous/'Touch' attacks. My god... do I need to even mention the issues with these? Please simplify it. 2nd ed was 'need +1 weapons to hit' and it was on with the show. The very name of 'touch attack'... sigh.
4. Our 3.5 Silence is broken. I hope we get a new one.
5. Evards Black Tentacles is also on the fritz. With the new grapple rules, this will of course get a tune up.
6. Rope Trick/Non-Dimensional spaces/Bags of holding/Portable holes. Please explain in more detail. Make it clear if it's bad, then what happens after combining these effects. Oh and also, Rope Trick is broken. At the least, it's like a 'save our game so we can rest again in the middle of the dungeon' button.
7. Fly. Need more mundane methods of taking down someone who's flying. Arrows and javelins are 'nice', but there needs to be a greater limit on who can fly and for how long IMO.
8. Related to the below comment, Undead and Demons... please, if you do only one of the changes I've asked for, please, please, PLEEEEEASE make it that UNDEAD and DEMONS/DEVILS can see in natural darkness to any range...!! For both a mechanical and common sense point of view, I hate to have Pit Fiends and Liches ordering minions to carry torches around or light a corridor because they can't see further than 60 feet in the dark. Sigh.
**9. Detect Evil. Again... please, do something about this. As a DM, this would always make your Chaotic Evil sweet-talker dooomed to dangle on the end of a Paladin's spiked chain.

**UPDATE: After viewing the new 4E Pit Fiend monster entry, I noticed that Pit Fiends still have 'Darkvision', yet, there is hope. The Darkvision entry no longer has a measly 60 foot range, though who knows what the range actually is. For the love of all that is unholy, please, please make sure that this new Darkvision doesn't have a range of 60 feet! Omfg.
 
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ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
Ninja-to said:
3. Ethereal/Incorporeal/Gaseous/'Touch' attacks. My god... do I need to even mention the issues with these? Please simplify it. 2nd ed was 'need +1 weapons to hit' and it was on with the show. The very name of 'touch attack'... sigh.

Touch attacks are definitely out. Now they're attacks vs. Reflex defense (along with ranged touch attacks and anything that used to require a Reflex save). Plus, the ethereal plane is gone from the core cosmology, so presumably no more jaunting that way.

7. Fly. Need more mundane methods of taking down someone who's flying. Arrows and javelins are 'nice', but there needs to be a greater limit on who can fly and for how long IMO.

Flying SEEMS (based on a few of the 4e magic items mentioned) to start at the Paragon tier, so no more wizards floating at level 5, I'm guessing.
 

Ninja-to

First Post
Yeah just reading through the updated notes on 4E and you're right, touch attacks and flat footed ac are out.

Flying is still pretty complicated enough that I haven't bothered to learn the rules in the 8 years of 3rd ed.

Just about the only rule I care to remember is that if you don't have perfect maneuverability you don't get to hover...
 



arscott

First Post
Ninja-to said:
8. Related to the below comment, Undead and Demons... please, if you do only one of the changes I've asked for, please, please, PLEEEEEASE make it that UNDEAD and DEMONS/DEVILS can see in natural darkness to any range...!! For both a mechanical and common sense point of view, I hate to have Pit Fiends and Liches ordering minions to carry torches around or light a corridor because they can't see further than 60 feet in the dark. Sigh.
I can't speak for 4e, but SW Saga Edition really simplifies the vision abilities:
Low-light Vision: You can ignore concealment (but not total concealment) from darkness.
Darkvision: You can ignore concealment and total concealment from darkness.

No range or nothing. Just "you can still see in the dark".

**9. Detect Evil. Again... please, do something about this. As a DM, this would always make your Chaotic Evil sweet-talker dooomed to dangle on the end of a Paladin's spiked chain.
From what we've heard, fewer characters in 4e actually have alignment. Only the most noble creatures are considered good, and only the most vile are considered evil.

Look at the recently released statcards for the new edition of the D&D minis game:

There's only one Good-Aligned creature--The Angel of Vengance. Such champions of good as Bruenor Battlehammer and the Human Cleric of Bahamut are considered neutral. Likewise, the set has only four evil creatures: A demon, two devils, and the Blood of Vol Fanatic. Drow Spider Priestess? Not Evil. Ravenous Ghoul? Not evil. Nightmare? Not evil. Unless your sweet-talker sacrifices babies to Orcus every night, I don't think you have much to worry about.
 

Ninja-to

First Post
arscott said:
I can't speak for 4e, but SW Saga Edition really simplifies the vision abilities:
Low-light Vision: You can ignore concealment (but not total concealment) from darkness.
Darkvision: You can ignore concealment and total concealment from darkness.

No range or nothing. Just "you can still see in the dark".

From what we've heard, fewer characters in 4e actually have alignment. Only the most noble creatures are considered good, and only the most vile are considered evil.

Look at the recently released statcards for the new edition of the D&D minis game:

There's only one Good-Aligned creature--The Angel of Vengance. Such champions of good as Bruenor Battlehammer and the Human Cleric of Bahamut are considered neutral. Likewise, the set has only four evil creatures: A demon, two devils, and the Blood of Vol Fanatic. Drow Spider Priestess? Not Evil. Ravenous Ghoul? Not evil. Nightmare? Not evil. Unless your sweet-talker sacrifices babies to Orcus every night, I don't think you have much to worry about.


Really hope you're right.
 

Sitara

First Post
All detect alignment type spells and abilities are gone. Permanently.

Desingers said they wanted roleplaying to find someones alignment, not via a spell. Though I hope paladins get something else to make up for this...say a detect lies or detect gastronimical indigestion or something. :)
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Agree with a lot of the issues you raised. Invisibility in particular is much too powerful to be a second level spell. Tsk, Gary, what were you thinking?
 

Sitara

First Post
It still pales in comparison to rope trick, sleep, mirror image. (especially when you consider all these spells can be cast while the mage is invisi)
 


Ninja-to said:
Just about the only rule I care to remember is that if you don't have perfect maneuverability you don't get to hover...

I always thought this was ridiculous. In the real world, just about any active flyer (wing flapping vs. just gliding) can hover. Maybe not for very long, but at least for a 6 second round. Flying and gliding should be two different modes of travel.

Gliding should require wide turns and a certain amount of altitude loss compared to forward movement.

Maneuverability should determine how long a flying creature can hover, not if it can hover. There should be no more than three maneuverability classes for flyers. Something like:

Poor: hover for no more than 1 consecutive round at a time (requires the entire round's movement), move 3 squares forward for each 90 degree rotation. Pulling out of a dive steeper than 1 square of altitude for each square of total forward movement requires a DC20 Dex check.

Average: hover for 3 consequtive rounds (requires the entire round's movement), move 2 squares forward for each 90 degree rotation. Pulling out of a dive steeper than 1 square of altitude for each square of total forward movement requires a DC15 Dex check.

Excellent: hover at will, change direction at will. No check to pull out of any dive.
 

JahellTheBard

First Post
Ninja-to said:
Here's my list of 'don't do's' and wishes for 4E. These problems were a major headache and in some cases broken enough to ruin encounters. I know at least a few have been mentioned before, but for lack of a Search button, here they are again in a new thread, with others.


1. Darkness spells casting 'shadowy illumination'. Please make it 'dark'...!
3. Ethereal/Incorporeal/Gaseous/'Touch' attacks. My god... do I need to even mention the issues with these? Please simplify it. 2nd ed was 'need +1 weapons to hit' and it was on with the show. The very name of 'touch attack'... sigh.
4. Our 3.5 Silence is broken. I hope we get a new one.
5. Evards Black Tentacles is also on the fritz. With the new grapple rules, this will of course get a tune up.
6. Rope Trick/Non-Dimensional spaces/Bags of holding/Portable holes. Please explain in more detail. Make it clear if it's bad, then what happens after combining these effects. Oh and also, Rope Trick is broken. At the least, it's like a 'save our game so we can rest again in the middle of the dungeon' button.
7. Fly. Need more mundane methods of taking down someone who's flying. Arrows and javelins are 'nice', but there needs to be a greater limit on who can fly and for how long IMO.
8. Related to the below comment, Undead and Demons... please, if you do only one of the changes I've asked for, please, please, PLEEEEEASE make it that UNDEAD and DEMONS/DEVILS can see in natural darkness to any range...!! For both a mechanical and common sense point of view, I hate to have Pit Fiends and Liches ordering minions to carry torches around or light a corridor because they can't see further than 60 feet in the dark. Sigh.

**UPDATE: After viewing the new 4E Pit Fiend monster entry, I noticed that Pit Fiends still have 'Darkvision', yet, there is hope. The Darkvision entry no longer has a measly 60 foot range, though who knows what the range actually is. For the love of all that is unholy, please, please make sure that this new Darkvision doesn't have a range of 60 feet! Omfg.

I agree with most of your points ...
except point 2 and 9 ... invisibility is non too unbalancing, and there are many ways to survive 'detect evil' for a skilled villain
 

kennew142

First Post
Ninja-to said:
2. Invisibility. Where to begin. Either start giving saves for this spell, or create much more readily available methods of overcoming it. This has always been a problematic game mechanic.


I disagree. IME Invisibility isn't the problem. Greater Invisibility is. The combination of a sorcerer with Greater Invisibility, Fly and long range spells is incredibly overpowered.

3. Ethereal/Incorporeal/Gaseous/'Touch' attacks. My god... do I need to even mention the issues with these? Please simplify it. 2nd ed was 'need +1 weapons to hit' and it was on with the show. The very name of 'touch attack'... sigh.

I'm not a fan of miss chances at all. I would be in favor of allowing magical weapons to hit incorporeal creatures. A better mechanic would be to give the creature a bonus to AC and Reflex defense because they are incorporeal.

6. Rope Trick/Non-Dimensional spaces/Bags of holding/Portable holes. Please explain in more detail. Make it clear if it's bad, then what happens after combining these effects. Oh and also, Rope Trick is broken. At the least, it's like a 'save our game so we can rest again in the middle of the dungeon' button.

I'm not sure why Rope Trick is broken. It's never derailed a game I've run.

7. Fly. Need more mundane methods of taking down someone who's flying. Arrows and javelins are 'nice', but there needs to be a greater limit on who can fly and for how long IMO.

Since wizards will be a little less squishy in 4e, there should be less need need for spells to take them out of the battlefield. I would like to see Fly limited to higher levels. I like it as a strategic spell better than a tactical spell. In 3e, I would have liked to see Overland Flight remain, but Fly go away.

I would also like to see the range on long range spells reduced. A high flying wizard should have as much range induced difficulty affecting folks on the ground as they have to affect him with weapons.

8. Related to the below comment, Undead and Demons... please, if you do only one of the changes I've asked for, please, please, PLEEEEEASE make it that UNDEAD and DEMONS/DEVILS can see in natural darkness to any range...!! For both a mechanical and common sense point of view, I hate to have Pit Fiends and Liches ordering minions to carry torches around or light a corridor because they can't see further than 60 feet in the dark. Sigh.
**9. Detect Evil. Again... please, do something about this. As a DM, this would always make your Chaotic Evil sweet-talker dooomed to dangle on the end of a Paladin's spiked chain.

**UPDATE: After viewing the new 4E Pit Fiend monster entry, I noticed that Pit Fiends still have 'Darkvision', yet, there is hope. The Darkvision entry no longer has a measly 60 foot range, though who knows what the range actually is. For the love of all that is unholy, please, please make sure that this new Darkvision doesn't have a range of 60 feet! Omfg.

I believe that darkvision no longer has a range. It is also more rare.

Detect Evil has been confirmed to have been removed.
 


Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
I'm with the OP on most points. Particularly the bits about spells.

In my Savage Tide 3.5 campaign the players and I all agreed to remove Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, and Greater Invisibility from the game. Non-PHB spells are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Yeah: we're looking for a more dynamic, engaged play experience. We wanted grapples to be scary, physical obstacles to be challenging, guards to have a purpose, distance to *mean* something. So we removed the spells that are essentially "I win" buttons in those situations. :)
 

Ninja-to

First Post
Sitara said:
All detect alignment type spells and abilities are gone. Permanently.

Desingers said they wanted roleplaying to find someones alignment, not via a spell. Though I hope paladins get something else to make up for this...say a detect lies or detect gastronimical indigestion or something. :)

Wow are you serious??? That, my friend, is fantastic news. It makes roleplaying sooooo much more involved. I love it! Best news I've heard all day. :lol:
 

The Little Raven

First Post
fnwc said:
As written, you can cast Darkness in total darkness to gain illumination.

I think that's his point. It's supposed to be a darkness spell, but can serve as a "lightness" spell instead, which a simple "Using this spell in conditions darker than shadowy illumination has no effect." would have fixed.
 

Raduin711

Adventurer
I think Rope Trick is going to be a non-issue now... they have stated that they want to get rid of the crawl an hour-camp-crawl an hour setup. We will see how it goes when the game is released, but I find it highly unlikely that Rope Trick will be in 4e, given their stated intentions.
 

Raduin711

Adventurer
Mourn said:
I think that's his point. It's supposed to be a darkness spell, but can serve as a "lightness" spell instead, which a simple "Using this spell in conditions darker than shadowy illumination has no effect." would have fixed.

You know, I don't think our gaming group ever picked up on that.
 

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