Problems with firearms?

[takyris]

The problem I have with firearms in d20 is they don’t scale damage at the same rate as melee weapons. Firearms vary from 2d4 to 2d12. However, if we look at a bow, it will do a 1d8+STR bonus damage. So, a character with a STR Bonus of +4 will do 8.5 points of damage on average per hit.

So you're comparing a guy with the maximum strength possible, and comparing him to an average-Dex guy with a handgun?

Using this logic, I could take an exceptional kobold with a Strength of 13, put him next to a human with a Strength of 10, and prove that kobolds are stronger than humans.

Now, for the record, I agree with some of your scaling issues. I like Double Tap, because it solves many of those issues, but I also like M&M's more flexible Power Attack, which doesn't specify a melee attack -- and which adds Accurate Attack (opposite of Power Attack, hit more often but for less damage) and All-Out Attack (opposite of Expertise, hit more often but take a penalty to Defense).

For example, at 5th level a Strong Hero with a Two-Handed sword (2d6, 19-20 x2) and Power Attack, without Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or a STR bonus will do 10.29 points of damage per round on average against AC 10 (assuming he power attacks equal to his BAB). That same character with a Desert Eagle (2d8, 20x2) firing at an AC 10 target at 40 feet, without Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or a DEX bonus to hit will do 2.84 points of damage per round.

Again, um. You're comparing a 5th-level strong hero melee-attacking with Power Attack to the same guy who isn't allowed to use Double-Tap? That's silly. Double-Tap is Power Attack for guns. Burst Fire is Power Attack for big guns. And you're adding a range penalty as an artificial handicap on the gun. Again, why?

EDIT: Whoops -- disconnected that Desert Eagles have 40-foot range. Leaving it in for clarity if quoted, but disregard:

"You could also say, "Oh, and in both cases, we're attacking an opponent from behind a door, so the melee guy is at a -4 to hit from cover, but the handgun guy can shoot from behind cover without penalty." Your example is skewed."

And beyond that, nobody gets Power Attack without at least a 13 Strength, since it's a prereq for the feat.

A more logical comparison would be, say, relevant score of 16 (start with 15, bump at 4th), and two feats beyond proficiency. The Sword Guy can go with Power Attack and Weapon Focus (or two other feats of your choice). The Gun Guy can go with Point Blank Shot and Double-Tap.

Against Defense 10:

Sword: BAB+5, +3 Str, +1 Focus = +9, Damage 2d6+4, average 11, need 2 to hit
11 x 95% chance of hitting = 10.45
Power Attack 5: Average of 16, need 6 to hit
16 x 75% chance of hitting = 12

Gun: BAB+5, +3 Dex, +1 PBS = +9, Damage 2d6+1, average 8, need 2 to hit
8 x 95% chance of hitting = 7.6
Double-Tap: Average of 11.5, need 3 to hit
11.5 x 90% chance of hitting = 10.35

Now, forget defense 10. Put it against a Defense they'll actually be aiming at in their game.

How about Defense 15?

Sword: +9 to hit, average 11, need 6 to hit
11 x 75% chance of hitting = 8.25
Power Attack 5: Average 16, need 11 to hit
16 x 50% chance of hitting = 8

Gun: +9 to hit, Average 8, need 6 to hit
8 x 75% = 6
Double-Tap: Average 11.5, need 8 to hit
11.5 x 65% = 7.475

Now, how about Defense 20?

Sword: +9 to hit, average 11, need 11 to hit
11 x 50% chance of hitting = 5.5
Power Attack 5: Average 16, need 16 to hit
16 x 25% = 4

Gun: +9 to hit, average 8, need 11 to hit
8 x 50% = 4
Double-Tap: Average 11.5, need 13 to hit
11.5 x 40% = 4.6

And even that is pretty rough, since it doesn't take into account criticals (the sword will pull a bit further ahead there). What it shows, in its own cheap-quick way, is that a greatsword is indeed a little bit better than the average handgun (note that I used a normal 2d6 handgun instead of the 2d8 Desert Eagle), provided that you are in a situation where you can carry around a greatsword without trouble, where you can close in with an opponent and have said opponent choose to close in with you despite seeing your greatsword, where no environmental factors are stopping you from engaging in melee combat, and where no cover is available.

I welcome you into my mobster campaign. You can be my right-hand man as we go into negotiations with the Carliotti family. Now, matters become unpleasant, I'll want you to... I'm sorry, are you strapping on a greatsword?

So, in a nutshell my problem with ranged weapons is that they don’t scale damage at the same rate as melee weapons. If your character is close enough to charge his target, then why would he even bother with a ranged weapon?

The average d20M gun does approixmately as much damage as a greatsword. And it can be used from behind cover without penalty, and at a range. How much more do you want? If you treat the game like D&D, charging in close and never using cover, then yeah, guns are gonna suck -- and you're going to eat a LOT of damage getting to those people. Your optimistic charging greatsword character is one good roll on a 3d6 double-tap away from a massive damage save.

 

[nobodez]

Of course, that 2d6 gun is small, and that 2d6 sword is large, so there's that as well. (try comparing equal size, like a 2d6 sword with a 2d8/2d10 Assault Rifle)

 

[takyris]

Of course, that 2d6 gun is small, and that 2d6 sword is large, so there's that as well. (try comparing equal size, like a 2d6 sword with a 2d8/2d10 Assault Rifle)

True -- I was using "equal dice" for the comparison, but in terms of actual ability, it's no contest. I could be firing a pair of 2d6 handguns, ditching double-tap and taking two-weapon fighting. (Against a nice medium Defense 15, that Strong Hero with the 16 Dex goes from +9 to +7/+7. Average damage of 8, needs an 8 to hit, so 8 x 65% for a single hit = 5.2 x2 = 10.4 average damage per round against Defense 15 before crits, which doesn't suck.) My preference would still be for double-tap or burst fire, though, since I like getting enough damage per hit to have a chance at cracking the ol' MDT.

And yeah, Burst Fire blows the doors off Power Attack and makes up a lot of lost-strength-bonus-to-damage ground, with that "-4 to hit, average of +9 to damage" for a 2d8 base-damage weapon.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Well, from where I see it, it's stems from two things.

1) Guns are easy to hide - not with slight of hand, but in general. Guns are much more common in today's society, and so they fit in.

While in general true, not germane to the point I was making which is about damage per round and damage scaling with level.

2) So, you took how many feats, classes, and whatnot just to match an M16 that any dumb schmoe can just pick up? Also, you can specialize in a gun just as much as with a melee weapon, and you can't get HE Longswords, but you can get HE 5.56mm rounds (or if you prefer, .50AE).

It takes just as many feats as it takes to use an M16 -- two. And while you can use HE rounds, it is not prudent in melee combat. I stipulated that the sword using character needed to be able to put his opponent in melee combat.

A third, though much smaller point, is what made firearms popular in the first place, they are the great equalizer. It takes many years to become an expert in a melee weapon, while a firearm deals just as much damage when you pick it up.

There is no game difference between firearms and melee weapons in regards to this. It takes just as long to become proficient in either. The non-proficient penalty is the same, -4. Additionally, the point I was making is that the firearm (in game terms is not the "great equalizer".

Again, I am just looking at damage / round comparisons to determine if the firearm in game terms is “the great equalizer”.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Of course, that 2d6 gun is small, and that 2d6 sword is large, so there's that as well. (try comparing equal size, like a 2d6 sword with a 2d8/2d10 Assault Rifle)

2d6 weapons come in tiny, small, medium, and large. 2d8 weapons come in medium, large, and huge.

 

[WaterRabbit]

So you're comparing a guy with the maximum strength possible, and comparing him to an average-Dex guy with a handgun?

Using this logic, I could take an exceptional kobold with a Strength of 13, put him next to a human with a Strength of 10, and prove that kobolds are stronger than humans.

Umm…maximum human strength possible, without equipment bonuses, is 23. Also, while DEX adds to the attack roll, it doesn’t add to the damage roll. I was just comparing damage so the actual DEX was unimportant.

However, I think you missed the point I was making. That they are even comparable is what is odd. To put it another way, the average damage per combat round for a firearm should be higher. Either because an individual bullet does more damage or more bullets can be fired per combat round.

Now, for the record, I agree with some of your scaling issues. I like Double Tap, because it solves many of those issues, but I also like M&M's more flexible Power Attack, which doesn't specify a melee attack -- and which adds Accurate Attack (opposite of Power Attack, hit more often but for less damage) and All-Out Attack (opposite of Expertise, hit more often but take a penalty to Defense).

I was just looking at what is in the core book. If there was either cap on Power Attack of +/- 5 or add in Accurate Attack, then it would address the problem. At that point we are only left with the strength issue as a problem.

Again, um. You're comparing a 5th-level strong hero melee-attacking with Power Attack to the same guy who isn't allowed to use Double-Tap? That's silly. Double-Tap is Power Attack for guns. Burst Fire is Power Attack for big guns. And you're adding a range penalty as an artificial handicap on the gun. Again, why?

Double Tap adds 50% more damage in exchange for a 10% attack penalty, but it doesn’t scale with level. Burst Fire adds 100% more damage in exchange for a 20% attack penalty. Power Attack scales with level allowing a +1-+20 damage bonus in exchange for a comparable attack penalty. So, at level 7 we get a 100% damage bonus, at level 14 we get 200%, and at level 20 we get a 286% damage bonus (assuming average of 7 points of damage on a 2d6 weapon. Additionally, on a critical hit, the Power Attack damage is doubled. Double Tap and Burst Fire dice are not (pg. 131 last paragraph).

I picked 40’ so as not to cloud the issue with Point Blank Shot (a requirement for Double Tap)

And beyond that, nobody gets Power Attack without at least a 13 Strength, since it's a prereq for the feat.

A more logical comparison would be, say, relevant score of 16 (start with 15, bump at 4th), and two feats beyond proficiency. The Sword Guy can go with Power Attack and Weapon Focus (or two other feats of your choice). The Gun Guy can go with Point Blank Shot and Double-Tap.

I would start with 17 and go to 18 at 4th (damage goes from +4 to +6)

Against Defense 10:

Sword: BAB+5, +3 Str, +1 Focus = +9, Damage 2d6+4, average 11, need 2 to hit
11 x 95% chance of hitting = 10.45
Power Attack 5: Average of 16, need 6 to hit
16 x 75% chance of hitting = 12

Sword: BAB +5, +4 STR, +1 WF = +10
Damage: 2d6+6 ave. 13
Ave. Dmg. = .95 * 13 + .95 * 13 * 0.1 = 13.59 per round
Power Attack for 5: 2d6+11 ave. 18
Ave. Dmg. = .8 * 18 + .8*18*0.1 = 15.84 per round

Gun: BAB+5, +3 Dex, +1 PBS = +9, Damage 2d6+1, average 8, need 2 to hit
8 x 95% chance of hitting = 7.6
Double-Tap: Average of 11.5, need 3 to hit
11.5 x 90% chance of hitting = 10.35

Gun: BAB +5, +4 DEX, +1 PBS = +10
Ave Damge: .95 * 8 + .95 * 8 * .05 = 7.98
Damage: 2d6+1 ave. 8 w/double tap 3d6+1 = 11.5
Ave. Dmg. DT = .95 * 11.5 + .95 * 8 *.05 = 11.305
Damage: 2d6+1 ave. 4d6+1 with/Burst Fire = 15
Ave. Dmg. BF = .85 * 15 + .85 * 8 * 0.05 = 13.09

But not including the change for critical hits you short change the sword.

Now, forget defense 10. Put it against a Defense they'll actually be aiming at in their game.

How about Defense 15?

Sword: +9 to hit, average 11, need 6 to hit
11 x 75% chance of hitting = 8.25
Power Attack 5: Average 16, need 11 to hit
16 x 50% chance of hitting = 8

Gun: +9 to hit, Average 8, need 6 to hit
8 x 75% = 6
Double-Tap: Average 11.5, need 8 to hit
11.5 x 65% = 7.475[/QUOTE]

Sword:
Ave. Dmg. = .8 * 13 + .8 * 13 * 0.1 = 11.44 per round
Ave. Dmg PA. = .55 * 18 + .55*18*0.1 = 10.89 per round

Gun:
Ave Damge: .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * .05 = 6.72
Ave. Dmg. DT = .70 * 11.5 + .70 * 8 *.05 = 8.33
Ave. Dmg. BF = .60 * 15 + .60 * 8 * .05 = 9.24

Now, how about Defense 20?

Sword: +9 to hit, average 11, need 11 to hit
11 x 50% chance of hitting = 5.5
Power Attack 5: Average 16, need 16 to hit
16 x 25% = 4

Gun: +9 to hit, average 8, need 11 to hit
8 x 50% = 4
Double-Tap: Average 11.5, need 13 to hit
11.5 x 40% = 4.6

Sword:
Ave. Dmg. = .55 * 13 + .55 * 13 * 0.1 = 7.87 per round
Ave. Dmg PA. = .3 * 18 + .3*18*0.1 = 5.94 per round

Gun:
Ave Damge: .55 * 8 + .55 * 8 * .05 = 4.62
Ave. Dmg. DT = .45 * 11.5 + .45 * 8 *.05 = 5.355
Ave. Dmg. BF = .35 * 15 + .35 * 8 * .05 = 5.39

And even that is pretty rough, since it doesn't take into account criticals (the sword will pull a bit further ahead there). What it shows, in its own cheap-quick way, is that a greatsword is indeed a little bit better than the average handgun (note that I used a normal 2d6 handgun instead of the 2d8 Desert Eagle), provided that you are in a situation where you can carry around a greatsword without trouble, where you can close in with an opponent and have said opponent choose to close in with you despite seeing your greatsword, where no environmental factors are stopping you from engaging in melee combat, and where no cover is available.

Accounting for critical the gun is outclassed. This does not even account for possible additional modifiers such as weapon specialization (3rd Strong/2nd Solider) and Melee Smash/Improved Melee Smash which together add +4 to the base damage of the sword. It gets even worse when iterative attacks are included. If you used a 2d8 gun the ave. damage would be 2 higher and Weapon specialization would also add +2. So, that is a wash there. However, the Improved Critical feat (which can be applied to either) really increases the damage potential of the sword.

I welcome you into my mobster campaign. You can be my right-hand man as we go into negotiations with the Carliotti family. Now, matters become unpleasant, I'll want you to... I'm sorry, are you strapping on a greatsword?

Fairly campaign specific, but OK. A greatsword (actually a katana in d20 modern) fits in a gym bag just as easily as a machine gun/rifle/shotgun or any other longarm. You also don’t strap on a sword. Sword: Round 1 open bag (MEA), equip sword and move (MEA).
Gun: Holstered pistol , draw gun and move (MEA) and fire once (AA).

The average d20M gun does approixmately as much damage as a greatsword. And it can be used from behind cover without penalty, and at a range. How much more do you want? If you treat the game like D&D, charging in close and never using cover, then yeah, guns are gonna suck -- and you're going to eat a LOT of damage getting to those people. Your optimistic charging greatsword character is one good roll on a 3d6 double-tap away from a massive damage save.

As shown above, in all cases a katana does significantly more damage when not using PA versus a gun not using DT or Burst Fire. Now Double Tap and Burst Fire start to close the gap at higher target defenses compared to Power Attack. However, that gap will once again increase as level increases. Especially since BAB increases much faster than defense.

I just don’t see “Burst Fire blowing the doors off of power attack”. The numbers don’t bear that out.

 

[WaterRabbit]

True -- I was using "equal dice" for the comparison, but in terms of actual ability, it's no contest. I could be firing a pair of 2d6 handguns, ditching double-tap and taking two-weapon fighting. (Against a nice medium Defense 15, that Strong Hero with the 16 Dex goes from +9 to +7/+7. Average damage of 8, needs an 8 to hit, so 8 x 65% for a single hit = 5.2 x2 = 10.4 average damage per round against Defense 15 before crits, which doesn't suck.) My preference would still be for double-tap or burst fire, though, since I like getting enough damage per hit to have a chance at cracking the ol' MDT.

And yeah, Burst Fire blows the doors off Power Attack and makes up a lot of lost-strength-bonus-to-damage ground, with that "-4 to hit, average of +9 to damage" for a 2d8 base-damage weapon.

Actually, this is a red herring since you can pick your damage dice to match your gun size as I pointed out below.

Two weapon fighting with guns against AC 15.

Sword: (for reference)
Ave. Dmg. = .8 * 13 + .8 * 13 * 0.1 = 11.44 per round
Ave. Dmg PA. = .55 * 18 + .55*18*0.1 = 10.89 per round

Gun:
Ave Damge: .8 * 8 + .8 * 8 * .05 = 6.72
Ave. Dmg. DT = .70 * 11.5 + .70 * 8 *.05 = 8.33
Ave. Dmg. BF = .60 * 15 + .60 * 8 * .05 = 9.24
Ave. Dmg. Two small guns Guns: .70 * 8 + .70 * 8 *.05 + .70 * 8 + .70 * 8 *.05 = 8.33 + 8.33 = 11.76

Two weapon fighting is superior to both Double Tap and Burst Fire. It just edges out the guy with the sword.

However, you shouldn’t have to use two pistols to barely out do a sword wielder. The base problem is that the rate of fire of guns is not taken into account. It is possible to empty the magazine of any firearm in 6 seconds (belt fed weapons excluded). So either the average damage of firearms should be increased or the number of shots allowed per round should be increased.

Perhaps allow all guns the effect of Flurry of Blows (called Rapid Shot) at a cumulative -2 penalty per shot. At about -10 you would start to get diminishing returns (depending upon target’s defense). I would have to work out the math.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Oh and just to be complete, wielding two katanas would give:

AC 15:
Attack Modifiers: +5 BAB, +4 STR, +1 WF, -4 TWF = +6
Ave Dmg. = .6 * 11 + .6 * 11 * .1 + .6 * 9 + .6 * 9 * .1 = 7.26 + 5.94 = 13.2
Ave Dmg. PA = .35 * 16 + .6 * 16 *0.1 + .35 * 14 * .1 = 6.16 + 5.39 = 11.55

versus:

Gun:
Ave. Dmg. Two small guns Guns: .70 * 8 + .70 * 8 *.05 + .70 * 8 + .70 * 8 *.05 = 8.33 + 8.33 = 11.76Gun:

 

[WaterRabbit]

oops

 

[S'mon]

However, you shouldn’t have to use two pistols to barely out do a sword wielder. The base problem is that the rate of fire of guns is not taken into account.

That's the big problem - any sensible system should allow multiple shots vs the same target in one round. The best systems use a Recoil or similar score to limit this vs the firer's strength - eg give a pistol recoil 2 per d6 dmg, so recoil 4 for a 2d6 bullet, then STR 12 could fire 3 with no penalty, or 4 at 16-12 = a -4 penalty, etc.