Problems with firearms?

[Munin]

I share some of the common gripes with the way D20 Modern handles firearms, but I can't really say it any better than this fellow did.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

My biggest problem has been the ranges. Even at their most extreme, none of the longarms come close to reaching their real life "effective range" for either point or large targets. I understand the reasoning for this (having the first range increment span an entire floor mat because it would be so large), but compensating for that throws of combat that takes place outside of that first increment.

Another problem is that some of the ranges are just downright wrong when compared to other weapons: the AK-47 vs the M-16A2, for instance. The AK-47 has an effective range against point targets of about 1,300 feet, whereas the M-16A2 is about 1,800 ft. That means the AK-47, even if you want to shorten them based on my earlier point, should have a range increment roughly 2/3 that of the M16A2. In the game, the AK-47 is 70 ft. and the M-16A2 is 80 ft.

So, while I can understand the need to greatly reduce the overall range for the sake of playability, I was entirely frustrated while working on a d20 Modern project by the lack off accuracy when it came to the point in the second paragraph.

 

[Cowpie Zombie]

I share some of the common gripes with the way D20 Modern handles firearms, but I can't really say it any better than this fellow did.

I read about three sentences before I gave up due to his obnoxious, grating attempt at style and wit. Can you summarize what he was trying to say?

 

[Ranger REG]

I think one of the complaints is Autofire uses a square template for its effect, so say you place this template 40' away, how do the bullets get to that point without passing through the space inbetween?

They get cover bonus? (AC and Reflex Save?)

Also why do they suddenly stop at the end of that square template? Surely they would carry on to hit things behind that square target area. Also daft things like burst fire making things harder to hit were as in reality burst fire is designed to ensure you are more likely to hit your target.

We hardly keep track of the arrows' path in D&D when they miss the target, so why must keep track of the bullets' path? Unless it is relevant to the story (like the DM is willing to allow stray bullet to hit a bystander who happens to be a witness the PCs are supposed to protect), it's best not to make additional bookkeeping.

However, Your Campaign, Your Rules.

 

[Cowpie Zombie]

We hardly keep track of the arrows' path in D&D when they miss the target, so why must keep track of the bullets' path? Unless it is relevant to the story (like the DM is willing to allow stray bullet to hit a bystander who happens to be a witness the PCs are supposed to protect), it's best not to make additional bookkeeping.

[/b]

Precisely. I really get the feeling that some of you boys would be happier playing GURPS or, even better, a table-top war game.

 

[slingbld]

GURPS? Hell, ROLE MASTER!
All those tables, charts, rules. Combat takes 30 minutes a round but it's realistic!!

 

[Bagpuss]

"Some might say that the d20 System isn't realistic. They're right. It isn't. It's heroic, designed to help adjudicate larger-than-life adventures. In the case of d20 Modern, those adventures model action movies." (D20 Modern core rulebook, page 188)

So the criticism that d20 Modern doesn't model reality well is essentially stating the obvious. That never was the game's purpose.

Fair point, but even in action movies bullets just don't disappear once they leave a 10' by 10' targeted square.

 

[slingbld]

I read about three sentences before I gave up due to his obnoxious, grating attempt at style and wit. Can you summarize what he was trying to say?

Here here!
That was an annoying article!!
He lost a majority of his listeners by trying too hard to sound Irish (or Scottish, whichever).

 

[VirgilCaine]

I hear a lot of complaints about the way d20 Modern handles firearms. Would anyone care to elaborate on what's wrong with the system, and/or suggest a better one?

First, M-60's fire 7.62mm ammo, NOT "medium machine guns", as weapons table states...every other entry has the caliber, but not the M-60. Stupid.

Sawed-off shotguns are not "Illegal (+4)", they are "Restricted" (+2)" (If you don't have a Class III Federal Firearms License, they are Illegal (+4)").

Body armor is not licensed. Committing a crime with it on in Kalifornia will net you a few extra dimes, but thats why it's concealable, mate.

The magazine sizes are the "standard", with no variation for the [very expensive] 75- or 100-round drums.

I have to agree with the autofire and burst fire problems.

There were no guidelines for representing similar firearms--"The Remington 700 could also be used to represent most military bolt-action rifles from the late 19th up to the middle 20th century, as well as target and hunting rifles." or "The Ruger Service Six (without the masterowrk bonus) can represent a variety of small caliber revolvers from the last ~150 years, that deal either 2d4 or 2d6 damage, and vary from [X] to [Y] size."

But of course, they wanted action movies, not realism...which is why I'm sure I'll grow to dislike it as I keep using it.

Penetration rules?
Hey, I solved that with a little body armor modification.
Soft body armor ("Concealable armor") turns up to 2d6 weapons into subdual damage, hard body armor ("tactical") turns up to 2d10 weapons into subdual damage. Simple, more realistic than the way that body armor is treated elsewhere.
Of course, this ONLY applies against ballistic damage, not anything else. This fits the generalization of the rest of the system well.
I may allow the armor class bonus to only apple versus melee weapons, and the "soak" feature against ranged weapons...but I'd have to think about that...
But then, soft body armor is really only effective against handgun cartridges, not against spears or crossbows or knives...

 

[S'mon]

I think d20 Modern was really going for cinematic feel more than realism. That's fine with me as I already get plenty of realism but not nearly enough high-flying adventure in my life

I think they should have named it more accurately, "d20 action movie" or somesuch. The rules as they stand are ok for Die Hard or a modern Bond flick, but you can't do a war movie like Saving Private Ryan, or a Tom Clancy or Special Ops type movie. I want modern rules that be used to model moderately realistic combat, with use of cover, suppressive fire and such, where a direct hit from a LAW will not leave the high-level character mildly bruised...