Problems with firearms?

Cowpie Zombie said:
I read about three sentences before I gave up due to his obnoxious, grating attempt at style and wit. Can you summarize what he was trying to say?

I'll have a go.

Chrarles Ryan has said D20 Modern's firearms were designed with game balance in mind as opposed to reflecting reality, and it also attempts to reflect cinematic reality rather than real life.

All firearms are pretty similiar so that players would not all use the 'best' firearm available, strange that in D&D there are weapons that are obviously better, why in D20 Modern do they need to be so bland? Any way this is not the case as in for example in the handgun catagory Glock 20 being "masterworked" is better than any other handgun, there really is no reason to pick any other handgun.

No rules for weapons failures, recoil, and other things that would actually differenciate between weapons and make gunplay in the game more fun and interesting, without adding much to the complexity, as already demonstrated in other D20 games that were out before D20 Modern, and under the OGL. He suggests they reinvented the wheel, partly to avoid using Open Game Content from other publishers.

He points out that Automatic Fire doesn't even reflect cinematic reality.

You fire 10 rounds, of which only 1 round can ever hit, even if you are firing at point blank range at Monster bigger than the broad side of a barn. A target that akes up the whole of the 10' x 10' target area will be hit once, yet four smaller targets that fill the same area will each be hit once. So where did the other three bullets go in the first case, let alone the other 9?

Charles Ryan said that this is because autofire is treated like a fireball or grenade, such that a dragon still only take 10d6 damage from a fireball, no matter how much of it is in the area, that's fair enough, but bullets are individual items, surely it would make more sense to model it like arrows or magic missiles? Its a case were design balance has gone too far.

Burst Fire is even worse, in reality and in film burst fire tends to make attacks more accurate not less. In D20 Modern it makes it less likely you will hit, and worse if you don't have the Feat it does no more damage, all those other bullets just vanish into thin air. So lets shoot at our barn again if we have a Burst fire weapon and we are standing 10ft away we are less likely to hit if we fire 3 rounds at it than if we fire one.

There's more stuff but that's a summary. His main point seems to be balance has been pushed too much at the loss of fun, accuraccy and tactical options.

(Me talking now, not the article now) One thing I think they got right in D20 Modern about autofire is that its a Reflex save to avoid being hit, when autofire is used the skill of the user doesn't really improve the chance of being hit by much its just bad luck if you get hit while in the 'danger space'.

The fact that D20 Modern is such a poor model of realistic gunfire is even weird when you consider Charles Ryan was behind "Millenium's End" which has probably the most well researched and accurate models of gunplay in any RPG.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

My main problem is that guns do too much damage.

Cuts into the heroic aspect of the game for me.

2D6 > 2D8 damage from a handgun is quite enough to kill a first level character. With massive damage no-one is safe (from crits at least) :)

I'd prefer a system where handguns were more comparable to Shortswords rather than greatswords.

i.e. a similar suspesion of disbelief applied to guns that melee weapons get?

But that's just me. I will find that system some day!
 

I've actually taken to enjoying Spycraft even more than d20 Modern these days, but I still use d20 modern because it's more widely available to most gamers.
 

I think getting hit by more accurate Burst Fire would be less fun for the players. Taking 4d8 damage every other round in a system with no healing isn't fun, not when you're taking an average of 18 damage and your Mas check is "only" 15.

If you want to "spray" an opponent and be more likely to hit, I suggest using Autofire. (Maybe a house-rule that you can autofire just a 5 ft square if you have the Burst Fire feat?) Unless your opponent has Evasion they will take damage. (One of my GMs hates Autofire because it's not realistic to use so many Fast villains.)

If my players wanted to get an attack bonus for Burst Fire, I would grin wickedly and say "go ahead" ... I've already drawn up lots of Soldiers with Burst Fire for such an event.

The best part is the way D20 Modern handles classes - just because someone is a Soldier doesn't mean he says "hut" a lot. He could just be a retired private security guard for a shady company (which is why he can use an illegal automatic weapon on the job).
 


Cowpie Zombie said:
"Some might say that the d20 System isn't realistic. They're right. It isn't. It's heroic, designed to help adjudicate larger-than-life adventures. In the case of d20 Modern, those adventures model action movies." (D20 Modern core rulebook, page 188)

So the criticism that d20 Modern doesn't model reality well is essentially stating the obvious. That never was the game's purpose.

Anyone who wants a realistic game with realistic firearms rules is invited to try GURPS: www.sjgames.com.

Um, no.

I don't expect it to be greatly realsitic. But there comes a point in design in which the attempts at emulating behavior of [whatever] is so weak that you are forced to say "no way" and it sucks the enjoyment out of the game.

(That said GURPS fails its own tests are firearms. Are bullets really 3.5 times as lethal as sword thrusts? I don't think so)

I don't need to use GURPS rules to get more acceptable autofire rules than those in d20 modern. In fact, I merely substitute those in Arsenal, which are almost as simple, but do the job better.

To wit, my too biggest SOD killers in d20 modern WRT autofire is:

- That you need feats to do burst fire. This is backwards. Burst fire was introduced because it didn't have the issues that full autofire did.
- That autofire spray is not affected by armor

These are not greatly complicated things to fix that require extensively detailed rules. I use Arsensal's rules, which address these problems by

- making it more difficult, but not impossible, to get benefits from burst fire without a feat; the feat merely makes it easier to hit with additional bullets.
- their spray rule takes into account AC/defense.
 
Last edited:

I like the firearms rules from Second World Simulations (free download from their website). It has separate rules for penetration and, while not perfect, do a decent job.
 

While the Big Bang series addresses a few of the issues folks have (in particular, the issue of ranges, plus some stuff nobody even mentioned yet, like anti-armor weaponry), I've actually gone so far as to create an entire set of alternate gunfighting rules for D20M.

These new rules take into account recoil, accuracy, use actual weapon ranges, provide a broader range of damage values, and involve a new armor system based in body armor threat level values, rather than relying solely on armor class mechanics. There are also special rules for the use of scopes, anti-aircraft weapons, anti-armor weapons, chemical and biological agents, etc.
 

Don't tell us about all these extra rules you've come up with without spilling some details on them! :)

Is this going to be a suplement you will be releasing? Are they house rules you use that you could post?

Gimme, gimme, gimme!! :D
 


Remove ads

Top