Produce Flame?

[moritheil]

If the druid's produce flame is the only source of light, and the party knows this, but doesn't get along well enough with him to convince him to keep the light around, they deserve to be in darkness.

 

[Marshall]

Actually marshall that is exactly what it means. It's probably easiest to adjudicate produce flame as a touch spell, and allow an attack as part of the casting. But unfortunately for whatever reason, IT ISN'T A TOUCH SPELL.

By a strict reading of the spell: it is a spell with range 0. So you cast the spell, and flames appear on your hand in a similar fashion as if you cast a fireball (or any other ranged spell) where the effects appear where you've designated. (within the range of the spell of course). Now produce flame has special rules for how you can actually throw the flames, and i see no reason why they shouldn't be followed.

Essentially what produce flame does is you cast it to make your hand light up with divine fire. That is all. What you then choose to do with that fire is up to you, but you must follow the 'special' rules for the spell and the game when you decide to do so.

So you believe that the entire Orb of line of spells has no effect?
They are the same spell, the only difference being that you can create them up to close range away but by the time you get to make an attack roll their instantaneous duration has expired.

Your ruling makes no sense in the context of the game.

 

[Neorealist]

So you believe that the entire Orb of line of spells has no effect?
They are the same spell, the only difference being that you can create them up to close range away but by the time you get to make an attack roll their instantaneous duration has expired.

Your ruling makes no sense in the context of the game.

Not exactly, for you see, every orb spell is listed with a range at which you can place the spell effect.

Looking in my spell compendium i find the range (at least for orb of acid) is close (25ft+5ft per 2 Cl's). and so by my ruling above, you can effect anything that is in close range when you cast the spell. In addition, the orb spell which i'm looking at right now says the spell shoots from your palm, and that you must succeed ranged touch attack with it to hit your target. So the "shooting from your palm when cast" is part of the successful casting of the spell. What has you confused is the instantanious duration. think of it this way: the magic that created that orb of force or acid or whatever is instantanious, but the orb is still there and in flight after the magic is finished creating it. (so you end up with something really silly like a magically created permanent construct thats only purpose is to explode on contact with your target, with no rules as to what happens if you miss)

<tongue in cheek>
Lets create a spell, we'll call it 'Evokers Wet Dream'. we'll base it off of fireball, but since we want it to be different we'll only have it effect one target. To compensate for that, lets up the damage cap on it to 15d6 rather than 10d6. As well, we don't want the monsters saving against it, so lets negate spell resistance AND not allow a saving throw, but instead substitute a range touch attack which any mage worth the name should be able to accomplish consistantly 80-95% of the time. (got to allow for those ones. and monks; we hates the monkssess )
Finally, just for kicks lets make it in every damage type possible, and add nifty additional effects to those types to make them even more 'unique' (they can save for those right? that makes them balanced?). Sounds like a good spell? well sorry suc... err blaster mages, but this is just too 'cool' to be anything but a conjuration spell.
</tongue in cheek>



Produce flame on the other hand states "Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand." thats it; no shooting from the palm, or flies at the target you designate, or any other verbiage indicating the flames appear or go anywhere other than "your open hand"

The spell then goes on to tell you that you can now make either melee touch attacks or ranged touch attacks to inflict fire on something, and how those touch attacks should be arbitrated. It doesn't say you can freely ignore the normal rules for making a "melee touch attack" or a "ranged touch attack" when you do so, nor does it give you an additional standard action in which to complete either of the above types of action when you cast the spell.

To sum:
orb spells: range close, touch attack required to resolve hit when cast.
produce flame: range 0, touch attacks required to throw flames.

 

[frankthedm]

Sick attack combos? Quite strong? Scales quickly? Even at 1d6+5, I can't believe any of that.

Druids... remember wildshape? Whack foe with dire bear or dire ape claw & deal 1d6+5 fire damage for a first level slot feels real solid to me. Maybe not "sick", but it isn’t ineffective either. Plus by having it going, a rogue can turn his sneak attacks into touch attacks as long as fire damage is not resisted. {I've never been keen on the way wotc did the touch and sneak attack subject, but that is another issue...}

You forget that the more you use it, the less time you have.

for a first level slot it lasts long enough. Also at 1 flame or minute per level, it is a real nice lead out to find out if a foe has fire resist / immunity before using a higher level spell.

True, it produces light (while active), but it is not a [Light] spell.

Just as bright though.

Make this spell [Force] damage and you have a case. But as arguably the most common energy damage, this spell is not even comparable IMO.

Produce flames versatility and duration keeps it in the running. The frequency of fire resist keeps the spell from running rampant, but that same frequency of fire resist adds value to the spell as a “tester of waters”. As an opening move, one of these flames is a useful ’throw away” to test for SR and Fire resist. Plus it’s duration means the druid can “do something” each round without dumping out a lot of spells when melee has not yet been joined.

Quite honestly, that is a ridiculous scenario. (Remember that I agree with your RAW interpretation) You're gonna base your ruling on the idea that the druid is not only the sole source of light, but we need to restrict his selfishness in a one-off spell?

That part was more for humor. My ruling was based on the spell, my reasons were why I agreed with it.

 

[Mercy]

Thanks for all the feedback. So I guess the only thing keeping the Chill Touch spell from being a "Rnd 1 Cast, Rnd 2 Start Touching" is the range increment of Touch?

 

[Vegepygmy]

Thanks for all the feedback. So I guess the only thing keeping the Chill Touch spell from being a "Rnd 1 Cast, Rnd 2 Start Touching" is the range increment of Touch?

That's correct (except in Marshall's world).

 

[Neorealist]

Thanks for all the feedback. So I guess the only thing keeping the Chill Touch spell from being a "Rnd 1 Cast, Rnd 2 Start Touching" is the range increment of Touch?

Exactly!

In case anyone was wondering, produce flame and it's metamagic-ed equivelents (extended, persisted, etc) is the bread and butter attack spell of any low-mid level druid i play. and i love to play druids. So it's not like i really have a grudge or anything against druids or this spell, i just have had to know well enough how it works to explain (sometimes repeatedly) to other people, as it's not as intuitive as some would think. (referencing as it does touch attacks, specific appendages, and some aspects of 'holding a charge')

(was particularly fun trying to educate a 2nd ed devotee DM that decided to try his hand at 3.5 since all the rest of us wanted to play it; but that is a whole 'nother story)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

As the others have said: First round is casting only. It's not a ray or touch spell where you must touch someone to deliver it. The standard action delivers the flame to you. In later rounds, you can deploy it.