D&D 5E Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise

[DND_Reborn]

Expertise as advantage would be interesting. It would prevent the current possibility of stacking Expertise with advantage. It would raise their average without raising their range. It would mean as much at 2nd level as it did at 20th level. I'm not entirely sure if I'd want to switch to it, though.

Well, like I said, we tried it and didn't like it as much. It made the feature feel nearly worthless (in a strange way). Also, considering the perceptive rogue vs. the perceptive cleric. Rogues aren't likely to normally invest much in WIS. Expertise levels the field and even allows the RAW rogue the chance to ultimately be better.

I don't know, maybe a combination? A flat bonus (or reduced at least) and advantage? Or would that be too much...

 

[Sadras]

In the same vein, I also dislike the fact that Ability factors so much. Your god ugly terrifying level 13 warrior with 8 in Cha has the same modifier in Intimidation than the level 1 Bard with 18 in Cha? Get ouuuut.

As DM you may give the level 13 warrior Advantage on the roll depending on HOW he goes about it. You may give a minimum passive and you may even swap out Cha for Str. Both giving Advantage on a roll and replacing one ability with another are options specified within the DMG.

For the Bard, well it depends who/what he is trying to intimidate and HOW he goes about it. As DM you may rule the intimidate fails before it gets off the ground especially if he is your colourful, polite and unarmed bard.

 

[Maxperson]

This is old-school and I was mistaken about it in 5E myself at first. Ability scores represent some natural talent and can also be some training. Funny, huh? I never liked the idea and thought that being the case, "proficiency" should have been relabeled "specialization".

Yes, I know. I think they added in the "training" portion of stat bonuses in order to justify everyone being able to roll on everything. I've separated it back out, because it makes more sense for it to be natural ability and not training, and in order to avoid the issue that you are having.

 

[5ekyu]

[MENTION=6987520]dnd4vr[/MENTION]
"Nice for you, but for me proficiency (i.e. experience) should definitely out-pace the others."

Obviously we just have tastes thst differ but also perspectives.

To me "experience" is reflected in all three of those modifier types, not just proficirncy.

Ability score represents a broad set of aptitudes- applies to a wide set of challenges and do is very much "experience".
Proficiency represents more focused efforts and essentially basic training and work ecperience.
Expertise is more like even more extensive effort and mastery. If anything I might prefer aesthetiaslly to have it be z different mechanic,.

 

[mortwatcher]

I like Rogues being good at what they do, but think about this for RAW:

A 20th-level Rogue (INT 10) with expertise in Arcana is +12. A 20th-level Wizard (INT 20) in Arcana is +11. HOW THE *BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP* DOES THAT HAPPEN? Makes NO sense.

if the rogue is picking arcane for expertise, he probably has a pretty good reason for it, especially if there is a wizard in the party already
I could easily imagine a thief having specialty of breaking into wizard towers and thus having to learn a lot about arcane arts and how to avoid/break them and gaining expertise in that area

 

[Ovinomancer]

if the rogue is picking arcane for expertise, he probably has a pretty good reason for it, especially if there is a wizard in the party already
I could easily imagine a thief having specialty of breaking into wizard towers and thus having to learn a lot about arcane arts and how to avoid/break them and gaining expertise in that area

Right, but "knows about Arcana stuff" is a bit different from "can be better at Arcana (as a C student) than the best Wizard."

Odd interactions are odd, even if a close analog is not.

 

[mortwatcher]

Right, but "knows about Arcana stuff" is a bit different from "can be better at Arcana (as a C student) than the best Wizard."

Odd interactions are odd, even if a close analog is not.

honestly, if it was not for the "feeling mandatory" for old times sake (same with cleric and religion) and "easy shoe-in" because it keys off intelligence, I wouldn't pick arcana on a wizard, because mechanically it has very little impact on things that wizards actually do and is mostly used for book knowledge about arcane stuff, which anyone interested in reading those books can do

 

[Parmandur]

I'd recommend the dice pooling alternative skill rules from the DMG: adds some fun shenanigans to Skills, and maintains the Rogue/Bard balance.

 

[Ovinomancer]

honestly, if it was not for the "feeling mandatory" for old times sake (same with cleric and religion) and "easy shoe-in" because it keys off intelligence, I wouldn't pick arcana on a wizard, because mechanically it has very little impact on things that wizards actually do and is mostly used for book knowledge about arcane stuff, which anyone interested in reading those books can do

Huh. Good reminder everyone plays a bit different. Arcana, in my game, is often used to identify, create, and manipulate magic outside of the spell lists. BBEG doing a summoning ritual? Arcana let's you hamper or alter it in an active way, not a "recall info" way.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, I understand the purpose for bounded accuracy and all, but it makes me wonder if they bounded it too much?

Arguably, sure, but a single-die resolution mechanic just doesn't give you that much room to work with. 5e was committed to sticking to the exact same resolutions from 1 to 20, and having the non-proficient, unimproved-stat character still be theoretically 'contributing' at the end of that. So the abilities that depend on a proficiency, alone, for scaling - skills, mostly - have issues. Attacks scale with proficiency, for instance, but are also helped along by Extra Attack, cantrip scaling, sneak attack, etc. Saves only scale with proficiency for two, the rest only with stat bumps, if any, so even though save DCs scale with proficiency, they're just fine - and of course, spells also scale with slot, not just DC.


That said, Expertise does not stay inside those lines.