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Project Phoenix fighter discussion (Forked from: Feat Points)

While I'm tearing the fighter down and rebuilding it, I thought I'd post this idea for general consumption. I mentioned it before, and I'm on the fence about including it. I borrowed the concept of tiers of weapon mastery from 2E and added simple bonuses. This could easily be applied to weapon styles as well. These are all feats, but only fighters would have access to the top two (or three; it'd probably be easier to restrict WS also, to avoid having to alter PrCs that are intended for fighters only). These would be the Weapon Feats available every 4 levels (changed from 5) - you could take WF in a weapon group as before, or go with increased expertise in a single weapon.

Weapon Focus: Prereq: +1 BAB. Benefit: +1 to attacks with the chosen weapon.

Weapon Spec: Prereq: +6 BAB, WF. Benefit: +2 to damage and combat maneuvers (attack roll) with the weapon.

Weapon Mastery: Prereq: +11 BAB, WF and WS. Benefit: +1 to attacks, and threat range increased by 1.

Weapon Grandmastery: Prereq: +16 BAB, WF, WS, WM. Benefit: +2 to combat maneuvers and +1 die of damage for crits (multiplier is increased by 1).

I'm still considering the idea of using weapon groups in general. I've always wondered about the point of PrCs granting weapon/armor proficiencies, since 90% of the time you've already got the profs listed. I've also never liked the idea of fighters knowing how to use every almost weapon known to man, even if they've never even seen those weapons.

And, just for fun (though I have no real intention of using it, I might post it as an optional rule), a really simple weapon speed system. The modifier is the penalty you take on your init when wielding a weapon of that type. This came from a thread someone posted on another board; I, in typical fashion, tweaked it a bit and posted this in response.

Unarmed: +0

Light slashing/piercing, light ranged: -1

Light bludgeoning, 1H slashing/piercing, 1H ranged, bows: -2

1H bludgeoning, 2H slashing/piercing, 2H ranged (heavy crossbow): -3

2H bludgeoning: -4

I thought about moving 2H slashing to -4 and 2H bludgeoning to -5, but I thought that might be too much. This would tie into the mastery system (if you use it) - Weapon Spec and Weapon Grandmastery each grant a +1 init bonus. The speed enchantment also grants a +2 bonus (interesting note: haste doesn't grant an init bonus). Thus, a fighter with grandmastery in greatsword, wielding a greatsword of speed, has an init penalty of +0. The same fighter with the same bonuses with a dagger would have a +4 bonus, because he's just that badass. This would work best with random initiatives, but I think it could work with static too - most characters use the same weapon throughout combat, except under special circumstances (disarmed, weapon breaks, etc.).
 

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These are all feats, but only fighters would have access to the top two (or three
I think this effort would be counter-productive.
While Fighters don't need a power boost number-wise, they sure as hell don't need a nerf-bat hit either.
What little changes I introduced to the WF tree was to streamline my Warrior class and to warrant these improvements as feats at all. In my rules they're not restricted to the Warrior class, but investing in too many of them wouldn't be a good char-development strategy either. I've Found it ok to leave this choice in the players' hands. If someone wants so badly to screw himself up, why should I stop them?


I'm still considering the idea of using weapon groups in general.
. . .
I've also never liked the idea of fighters knowing how to use every almost weapon known to man, even if they've never even seen those weapons.
Good call. You can disregard my BAB charts if this change is too much for your taste (I used them to create balance between the weapons - and my solution is quite realistic too) and keep the rest. I promise you that you'll not be disappointed.


I've always wondered about the point of PrCs granting weapon/armor proficiencies, since 90% of the time you've already got the profs listed.
Same here. None of my PrCs offer new weapon/armor proficiencies or new class skills.


And, just for fun (though I have no real intention of using it, I might post it as an optional rule), a really simple weapon speed system. The modifier is the penalty you take on your init when wielding a weapon
Don't even write it up. Weapon-speed is bookkeeping nightmare and bites off huge chunks of gametime.
 

I think this effort would be counter-productive.
While Fighters don't need a power boost number-wise, they sure as hell don't need a nerf-bat hit either.
What nerf-bat? All I'm doing is replacing the WF feat tree with similar feats that have better benefits. Compare:

WF: Same

WS: Ftr lvl 4, WF; +2 damage VS. BAB +6, WF, +2 damage and +2 attacks for maneuvers.

WM (replaces GWF): Ftr lvl 8, WF; +1 to attack VS. Ftr lvl 11, WF, WS, +1 attack and +1 threat range

WGM (replaces GWS): Ftr lvl 12, WF, WS; +2 to damage VS. Ftr lvl 16, WF, WS, WM, +2 attacks for maneuvers and +1 crit multiplier. (Okay, this one might be a little weak; I should add in another +2 damage, I think.)

What little changes I introduced to the WF tree was to streamline my Warrior class and to warrant these improvements as feats at all. In my rules they're not restricted to the Warrior class, but investing in too many of them wouldn't be a good char-development strategy either. I've Found it ok to leave this choice in the players' hands. If someone wants so badly to screw himself up, why should I stop them?
I wouldn't exactly call those "little changes". :lol: You upped the prereq for GWF, made all the feats unrestricted, and added a large number of benefits. Overall, the changes you made are very similar to my own (comparing similar feats).

My version grants the weapon feats automatically also at 4th level and every 4 thereafter (so a L20 fighter would have five in all). It's obviously not as much as yours, but with the ability to choose WF for a group of weapons, mine ends up with more basic knowledge. IME, most players choose 1-3 weapons and use those their entire career - there's no real point in granting weapon mastery in a whole boatload of different weapons, since the PC will never use them. Even if, by some odd chance, the PC finds a weapon for which he doesn't have mastery, it will likely be in a group with which he has WF, so he can easily advance his skills with it by taking the feats normally.

Good call. You can disregard my BAB charts if this change is too much for your taste (I used them to create balance between the weapons - and my solution is quite realistic too) and keep the rest. I promise you that you'll not be disappointed.
I was talking about weapon groups from UA, which are already included with my fighter. Someone (Celebrim, I believe) asked why I didn't just use that as a general rule; I had considered it originally, then discarded it, but I'm rethinking it.

Don't even write it up. Weapon-speed is bookkeeping nightmare and bites off huge chunks of gametime.
Your system uses it, and it appears to be more complicated than mine - it affects number of attacks per round, as opposed to a simple init modifier.
 

What nerf-bat? All I'm doing is replacing the WF feat tree with similar feats that have better benefits. Compare:

WF: Same

WS: Ftr lvl 4, WF; +2 damage VS. BAB +6, WF, +2 damage and +2 attacks for maneuvers.

WM (replaces GWF): Ftr lvl 8, WF; +1 to attack VS. Ftr lvl 11, WF, WS, +1 attack and +1 threat range

WGM (replaces GWS): Ftr lvl 12, WF, WS; +2 to damage VS. Ftr lvl 16, WF, WS, WM, +2 attacks for maneuvers and +1 crit multiplier. (Okay, this one might be a little weak; I should add in another +2 damage, I think.)
1. You've increased the intervals significantly, meaning that now someone playing a melee dude now has to wait a lot longet betwen his rightly deserved stat benefits.
2. Maybe it's just a matter of personal taste, but as I see it, things should have mild progression to begin wih and gradually pick up momentum. This is how they usually do it in computerizd RPGs and I find this approach quite appopriate and desireable when it comes to pencil & paper RPGs. What you did was to make the player(s) hold their breath for 2 extra levels, but then to get a significant boost. And notice that these stats are not identical to those in entry #31.
3. What's the rationale behind a specific weapon augmenting all combat maneuvers (e.g. Bull Rush, feint etc) ?


My version grants the weapon feats automatically also at 4th level and every 4 thereafter (so a L20 fighter would have five in all). It's obviously not as much as yours, but with the ability to choose WF for a group of weapons, mine ends up with more basic knowledge.
I'd have you know that I flunked the Mind Probe exam.
And try to keep consistent. You write "available every 4 levels" and then list levels 1, 6, 11 & 16.


IME, most players choose 1-3 weapons and use those their entire career - there's no real point in granting weapon mastery in a whole boatload of different weapons, since the PC will never use them.
For all other classes, I'd agree. For a high level Fighter this repetoire seems insulting.


Even if, by some odd chance, the PC finds a weapon for which he doesn't have mastery, it will likely be in a group with which he has WF, so he can easily advance his skills with it by taking the feats normally.
Weapon Prof means getting familiarizd with a group of weapons that are decently similar to one another. WF+, OTOH, is an entirely different ballgame. Honing your longsword art to perfection should not have any effect on your scimitar fu (except for Weapon Mastery, where the entire understanding the chosen group hes reached its perfecrion).


I was talking about weapon groups from UA
Personally, I find it quite hard to swallow that Dagger, Sickle, Spear & Staff all belong in the same single group (Druid's).


Your system uses it, and it appears to be more complicated than mine - it affects number of attacks per round, as opposed to a simple init modifier.
I've explained this on in my HR thread. Read it and the explanation again - your deduction leads me to assume that the mechanical principles somehow eluded you.

[EDIT]
In caste you're wondering, it's in entry #28 of my HR thread.
[/EDIT]
 
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1. You've increased the intervals significantly, meaning that now someone playing a melee dude now has to wait a lot longet betwen his rightly deserved stat benefits.
Yes.

2. Maybe it's just a matter of personal taste, but as I see it, things should have mild progression to begin wih and gradually pick up momentum. This is how they usually do it in computerizd RPGs and I find this approach quite appopriate and desireable when it comes to pencil & paper RPGs. What you did was to make the player(s) hold their breath for 2 extra levels, but then to get a significant boost. And notice that these stats are not identical to those in entry #31.
Yeah, I changed how they worked between post 1 and post 2. *shrug* I thought a Grandmaster should be, you know, high level - not 12th. Looking at it now, though, I might just leave them as they were and maybe add in Weapon Supremacy at 12th, then bump WGM to 16th.

3. What's the rationale behind a specific weapon augmenting all combat maneuvers (e.g. Bull Rush, feint etc) ?
It's to maneuvers made using that weapon (disarm and trip). I should've been clearer.

I'd have you know that I flunked the Mind Probe exam.
No brain? :p Sorry, I couldn't resist.

For all other classes, I'd agree. For a high level Fighter this repetoire seems insulting.
When I was reading your respsonse, I thought about high-level martial artists. Many of them are black belts in multiple disciplines, because those disciplines are largely similar - a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick; it's just the way you use them that's different. I looked at the Pathfinder fighter last night, and they deal with weapon groups like a ranger's favored enemy - at each level you can get a new group, your bonus in all your other groups advances automatically. So, for example, at 5th level you choose Light Blades and get a +1 to attack/damage. At 9th level you choose Heavy Blades; your bonus in Light Blades increases to +2/+2. And so on. This seems like a more elegant solution.

Weapon Prof means getting familiarizd with a group of weapons that are decently similar to one another. WF+, OTOH, is an entirely different ballgame. Honing your longsword art to perfection should not have any effect on your scimitar fu (except for Weapon Mastery, where the entire understanding the chosen group hes reached its perfecrion).
See my comment above about martial artists. Longswords and scimitars are largely similar, so once you learn one, it's not hard to learn the other.

Personally, I find it quite hard to swallow that Dagger, Sickle, Spear & Staff all belong in the same single group (Druid's).
I didn't say I was using them all as-is. They put those in the same group precisely because they're druidic weapons - druids have a restricted list. Same with monks.

I've explained this on in my HR thread. Read it and the explanation again - your deduction leads me to assume that the mechanical principles somehow eluded you.
That's what it looked like to me, but I'll look at it again.
 

Okay, so here's what I've got after some work. I totally dismantled the combat style system and went over all the abilities, organizing them into feats or usable fighter abilities. Imposing Size, Lunge, Improved Lunge, Shield Focus, Improved Parry, Repulse Attack, Close Quarters Combat, and Pounding Strike are all feats. Anything else that's not listed here or appears as a combat ability below is gone.

In doing the combat abilities, I took the idea I'd applied to the rogue and did it again here, but with four tiers (levels of combat mastery). I tried to get a good mix of abilities at each level, such that each style is adequately represented overall, plus I tossed in a couple general abilities. All of the higher-tier abilities have prereqs; this was to prevent someone from taking, say, Killing Blow without having any expertise in grappling (not very likely, granted, but I prefer to hedge my bets - players will exploit any loopholes you give them).

As it turned out, I ended up with dead levels at 5th, 11th, and 17th, but I have no idea what to add there. Some kind of scaling ability would be good, but I'm drawing a blank. Also, I have no ideas for Lord of Battle - that seemed like a good name for a near-capstone ability, but beyond that... nothing.

1st: Combat focus, bonus feat
2nd: Bonus feat
3rd: Combat ability
4th: Uncanny dodge, mastery of arms, bonus feat
5th: Combat style focus
6th: Combat ability, bonus feat
7th: Iron mind
8th: Mastery of arms, bonus feat
9th: Combat ability
10th: Improved uncanny dodge, bonus feat
11th: Combat style focus
12th: Combat ability, mastery of arms, bonus feat
13th: Combat awareness
14th: Bonus feat
15th: Combat ability
16th: Force of will, mastery of arms, bonus feat
17th: Combat style focus
18th: Combat ability, bonus feat
19th: Lord of Battle
20th: Mastery of arms, bonus feat

Combat Focus: At the beginning of combat, the fighter enters a heightened state of awareness called combat focus. While in this state, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to Reflex saves and and +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class, as he can see threats coming and react more quickly. These bonuses don't apply against any attack that would deny the fighter his Dex bonus to AC. If the fighter is dazed, stunned, or knocked unconscious, he loses his combat focus and cannot regain it until he rests for 5 minutes. The focus otherwise lasts for the duration of the encounter.

At 11th level, the fighter does not lose combat focus from being dazed or stunned, and needs to rest for only 1 minute before he can regain his focus.

Combat Ability: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, the fighter can choose a combat ability from the list below. The abilities are divided into four tiers of mastery: Adept (1st level), Expert (6th level), Master (11th level), and Grandmaster (16th level); the fighter gains access to a new tier at the level listed. He must also fulfill any prerequisites listed for the ability to choose it.

Mastery of Arms: At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the fighter can choose a weapon group or a single weapon. In the case of a weapon group, he gains the Weapon Focus feat applied to all weapon from that group if he is already proficient; otherwise he gains basic proficiency. If he chooses a single weapon, he can apply the Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery, or Weapon Grandmastery feats, provided he fulfills the prerequisites.

At 8th, 12th, and 16th levels, the fighter can make the same choice: gain proficiency in a new weapon group, Weapon Focus in an existing group, or choose to advance in a single weapon. He can also gain Weapon Specialization in a weapon group for which he has the Weapon Focus feat, but this is the highest he can go with a group - further training (Weapon Mastery and Grandmastery) must be focused on individual weapons.

For example: Janus is 8th level. He is proficient with Bows, Heavy Blades, Light Blades, and Maces and Clubs. He chose to gain Weapon Focus in Heavy Blades at 4th level, and now chooses to take Weapon Specialization in that group. At 12th level, he takes Weapon Mastery with the greatsword (a heavy blade). At 16th, he can take grandmastery with the greatsword, mastery with another heavy blade, or advance his skills in a general weapon group.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The fighter can react quickly to shifts in the tide of battle. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Iron Mind: The fighter can use his Con bonus instead of his Wis bonus for Will saves.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: The fighter's awareness of his surroundings is almost supernatural. Due to his keen senses and the ability to watch everything around him, he can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue or other character the ability to sneak attack him by flanking him, unless the attacker's BAB is four or more points than his own.

If a character has uncanny dodge from a second class, he automatically gains improved combat awareness instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge/combat awareness stack to determine the minimum BAB required to flank him.

Combat Awareness (Ex): The fighter is so attuned with his environment that he can pinpoint concealed enemies more easily, reducing the benefit they gain from being hidden. A concealed enemy's AC bonus vs. the fighter only is halved (-1 for partial concealment, or -2 for total concealment). If the fighter has the Blind-Fight feat, these AC bonuses are negated entirely, and he can target the concealed creature with ranged attacks if it is within 30 feet. This benefit applies against all effects that grant concealment: fog/smoke, invisibility, blur, displacement, etc., but effects like thick fog that specifically reduce sight distance also affect this ability.

Force of Will: The fighter's force of will is so strong that he has a chance of fighting off effects that would cloud or take control of his mind. If he is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his save, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his save.

Lord of Battle: ???

Combat Abilities

[sblock]
Adept (1st)

Crushing Blow: If the fighter makes an attack against a helpless opponent or an unattended object, he automatically deals double damage on a successful strike. If he makes a critical hit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled. This ability can be used as many times per round as the fighter has attacks, and can be used in conjunction with Power Attack.

Dazing Blow: If the fighter uses Power Attack to strike a foe and scores a hit, the target must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 damage) or be dazed for one round. This ability can be used once per round.

Dual Strike: If the fighter is wielding two weapons, he can make a simultaneous attack with both weapons against the same target using the same attack roll. If the attack hits, it deals damage from both weapons. If the attack is a critical hit, use only the weapon that deals more damage - the other weapon deals normal damage only.
If the fighter can make sneak attacks, this damage can also be applied to the roll. This ability cannot be used in combination with Rapid Strike.

This attack takes the place of one iterative for both weapons - for example, if the fighter had three attacks with both weapons and made a dual strike with the first iterative, he could make only two further attacks with each weapon individually, or two more dual strikes with both weapons combined.

Rage: The fighter can enter a state commonly called a "rage" or "battlerage" where he gains incredible strength and endurance, but at the cost of personal defense and the ability to think clearly. While raging, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases his hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, the fighter cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Acrobatics, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the fighter's (newly improved) Constitution modifier.

Shield Rush: When using a shield and performing a bull rush, the fighter gains a bonus to his opposed Strength check to push his opponent back: +2 for a buckler, +4 for a light shield, +6 for a heavy shield, or +10 for a tower shield.


Expert (6th)

Blinding Strike: Once per combat, before initiative is rolled, the fighter can take a combat stride and make a single attack. This attack is exclusive of his normal attack routine.

Bulette Charge: If the fighter makes a shield bash and the attack hits, the opponent must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter's level + Str mod) or be dazed for 1d4 rounds. This ability can be used once per round; multiple dazing effects overlap (i.e., the duration is extended only if the result is higher than the time remaining). Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash

Bulwark: A fighter using a light, heavy, or tower shield can grant his shield bonus to an adjacent ally of his choice as a dodge bonus. Once chosen, the ally retains the bonus until they are no longer adjacent to each other, or until the fighter switches to protect a new ally. Prerequisite: Shield Focus.

Finishing Blow: Once per combat, the fighter can kill an opponent in such a way that it has a demoralizing effect on the opponent's allies. The fighter can declare his use of this ability when he learns if he has killed the opponent in question; in this case, he forfeits further attacks for that round to finish the target off. All the target's allies within 20 feet who can see the fighter must make a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 fighter's class level + fighter's Str mod) or become shaken (-2 to attacks, saves, and skill and ability checks) for the remainder of the combat. If the creature in question was a lieutenant or leader, the allies suffer a -2 or -4 penalty, respectively. Resistance or immunity to mind-affecting effects also applies this Will save.

Pain Resistance: The fighter gains DR 2/-. He can choose this ability multiple times; each time, it grants 2 more point of damage reduction. This stacks with DR gained from other classes or abilities, but not spells or magic items. Prerequisite: Con 13.

Pounding Strike: Once per round, the character can attempt to knock an opponent of up to one size larger back 5 feet, or knock it prone, with a melee attack made with the Power Attack feat. He must declare his intent beforehand (it can be any of the attacks made that round); if it hits and deals enough damage, the opponent is knocked back or prone. The character must deal at least 20 points of damage against a Medium opponent; each size larger increases the damage by 10, and each size smaller reduces it by 5. Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack.


Master (11th)

Crippling Strike: Once per round, when striking with a light or one-handed weapon, the fighter can strike an opponent's weak spot such that it deals 2 points of Strength or Dex damage (fighter's choice). Ability points lost to damage return at the rate of 1 point per day of rest. He can use this ability while grappling. Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Combat.

Repulse Attack: If an opponent makes a melee attack against the fighter and misses, the fighter can make an immediate shield bash attack against that opponent as an attack of opportunity; if the attack hits and the target fails a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter's level + Str mod), it is staggered (can only take a move or standard action) for 1 round. If the fighter rolls a critical hit, the target must save or be stunned instead. Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Shield Proficiency.

Greater Rage: The bonuses to the character's Strength and Constitution while raging increase to +6, and the morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at -2. Prerequisites: Con 15, Rage.

Rapid Strike: The fighter can make an extra melee attack at his highest base attack bonus as part of his normal attack routine, but all attacks made that round suffer a -2 penalty. If he is using two weapons, he gains the extra attack with his main hand only. Spells or abilities that grant extra attacks, like haste, work normally with this ability. Prerequisites: Dex 15.

Spell Deflection: The fighter adds his shield bonus to his touch AC vs. ranged touch and touch spells, and to his Reflex save against any spell or effect that allows one. Prerequisites: Shield Focus


Spell Parry: Once per round, the fighter can use one of his attacks of opportunity to attempt to parry a ranged touch or projectile spell targeting him. To do so, he must not be flat-footed and must be aware of the attack. He makes an attack against AC 10 + the spell's level + 4 (the spell is considered to be a Diminutive target). If the attack hits, he has deflected the spell in a direction of his choice. He can aim toward a target in his sight; if it is in range, use the spell's attack roll with a -4 penalty to determine success or failure.

The disintegrate spell cannot be parried. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes.

Talons of the Beast: If the fighter makes a successful attack with a light or one-handed piecing weapon, he can make an immediate grapple check at no penalty. All bonuses he normally gains apply to this check. [Note: In PP, initiating a grapple doesn't provoke AoOs, but trying to grapple an armed opponent incurs a -4 penalty to the attack roll. Likewise, I changed unarmed attacks to incur the -4 only against armed opponents.] Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Combat, Improved Unarmed Strike


Grandmaster (16th)

Greater Blinding Strike: At the beginning of combat, before initiative is rolled, the fighter can take a combat stride and take a full attack action. Feats or abilities that grant extra attacks, like Cleave or Great Cleave, cannot be used in conjunction with this ability. Prerequisites: Dex 19, Blinding Strike, Rapid Strike

Killing Blow: If the fighter is grappling an opponent and has it pinned, he can attempt to instantly kill it. In order to do so, he must have it pinned for at least one full round; on the next round, the fighter make the attempt as a standard action. The opponent must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter's class level + fighter's Str mod) or die. This ability is not usable against constructs, elementals, incorporeal creatures, oozes, plants, or undead, but otherwise works against creatures that are resistant or immune to critical hits or death from massive damage, or that have damage reduction. Prerequisites: Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Unarmed Combat, Improved Unarmed Strike

Quick Riposte: Each time an opponent makes a melee attack against the fighter and misses, the fighter can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent, provided he has any available. Additionally, he gains one extra attack of opportunity per 5 points of BAB. Prerequisites: Dex 17, Combat Reflexes, Rapid Strike

Shield Wall: The area the fighter threatens is considered to be difficult terrain (movement costs double, can't run or charge through it), and it also blocks line of effect for spells. Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Bulwark, Spell Deflection.

Stunning Blow: If the fighter uses Power Attack to strike a foe and scores a hit, the target must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 damage) or be stunned for one round. This ability can be used once per round. Also, if he has the Dazing Blow ability, he can use it any number of times per round. Multiple dazing blows against the same opponent do not increase the duration, however. Prerequisites: Str 17, Power Attack, Staggering Strike

Two-Handed Sweep: As a standard action, the fighter can make an attack against all opponents within his reach by making a sweeping attack with his weapon. He makes a single attack roll, which applies to all opponents; if an opponent is hit, it takes damage as normal and must make a Strength check (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter's class level + Str mod) or be knocked back 5 feet or be knocked prone (fighter's choice; he must state which before attacking, and the same result applies to all targets). This ability can only be used with a two-handed weapon. Prerequisites: Str 17, Power Attack, Staggering Strike.[/sblock]
 
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[FONT=&quot]Hey Kerrik,
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Nice stuff. On the overall, weaker, less versatile and less interesting (to me) than my Warrior, but definitely an improvement to the core Fighter.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]It’s just still too far away from casters (options-wise, power-wise & defense-wise) in my book to be tempting enough.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Some noted I find relevant:
[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot](Imp.) Uncanny Dodge:[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]Too late to count. Way too late.
[/FONT]

Dazing Blow:
[FONT=&quot]I tend to find the Anvil of Thunder feat (CW) quite appropriate.
[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]I’m not talking balance-wise, just in terms of credibility. Dazing with any weapon at any circumstance seems a bit farfetched to me.
[/FONT]

Dual Strike
The +2 bonus will make this one a no-brainer.
[FONT=&quot] . . .[/FONT]​
“This attack takes the place of one iterative for both weapons - for example, if the fighter had three attacks with both weapons and made a dual strike with the first iterative, he could make only two further attacks with each weapon individually”.
Again – no reason in the world not to use.


Blinding Strike:
This both doesn’t make sense and serves as an “I Win” card when combined with Dazing Strike.


Bulwark:
A shield can only be in one place at a given time. Unless you wish to venture to the anime realm, I’d suggest you narrow it down to a single adjacent ally at a time.


Staggering Strike:
“Fort save . . . or be knocked back 5 feet and staggered”
Can you knock back a great wyrm or a whale?
I’d suggest making a successful attack count as Bull Rush.


Rapid Strike:
“Spells or abilities that grant extra attacks, like haste, do not work with this ability”.
[FONT=&quot]This kind of logical gymnastics has always irked my eye.
[/FONT]

Spell Deflection:
I’m so stealing this one from you and making it into a shield feat.


Talons of the Beast:
Another trophy for the loot. I just don’t know yet what will be the prereqs.


Killing Blow
“This ability is not usable against constructs, elementals, incorporeal creatures, oozes, plants, or undead, but otherwise works against creatures that are resistant or immune to critical hits or death from massive damage, or that have damage reduction”
[FONT=&quot]Can you explain this one?


[/FONT]Shield Wall:
You mean “The fighter’s opponents treat the area...”, right?
[FONT=&quot]Oh, and yes. Another trophy for the loot.[/FONT]​
 

Uncanny / Improved come very late. So late that they aren't a factor in determining which class to choose. They are fairly helpful though.

Spell Parry is neat but comes out of nowhere. Doesn't do a thing for spells that don't require a ranged attack (most mental effects), that don't have a projectile element, or that hit an area (Fireball, Force Cage, etc.). Still, kind of nice and cool in an anime / superhero sort of way.

Iron Mind does not require the "if it is higher" clause. The verb can makes it an option, one that will only be used when advantageous.

Pain Resistance only works with itself, not with any other DR? That's ... kind of lame.

Staggering Strike is ... awesome.

So, you can't use Rapid Strike with Cleave / Great Cleave or Two-Weapon Fighting? How odd.


Some pretty sweet abilities tucked in there. Definitely interesting but not necessarily good, given the levels they occur at and what other classes can do at those same levels. Still, pretty nice stuff for some of it.
Combat Awareness helps solve the "invisible" problem. Spell Parry helps with some of the spells but not the real fight-enders. Lots of issues still to consider.


Good luck.
 

Nice stuff. On the overall, weaker, less versatile and less interesting (to me) than my Warrior, but definitely an improvement to the core Fighter.
Not saying much, but thanks. :)

(Imp.) Uncanny Dodge: Too late to count. Way too late.
Agreed. I was doing some work on this last night, and I moved it to L7 and renamed it Combat Awareness - still lags behind the rogue, but it's a bit more useful. I left IUD at 16, but I might swap it and Spell Parry.

I tend to find the Anvil of Thunder feat (CW) quite appropriate. I’m not talking balance-wise, just in terms of credibility. Dazing with any weapon at any circumstance seems a bit farfetched to me.
I don't know that one. Dazing is pretty obvious - you get smacked upside the head (or even hard enough to knock the breath from your lungs), and you're dazed. It's only a -2 penalty.

Dual Strike: The +2 bonus will make this one a no-brainer.
Hmm. I had to write out a comparison to see what you're saying, but I get it now. I forgot that since you're getting the damage from both weapons, it makes more sense to simply make 3 dual strikes at +2. Maybe only add half the damage from the off-hand weapon and remove the bonus?

Blinding Strike:: This both doesn’t make sense and serves as an “I Win” card when combined with Dazing Strike.
Let me explain it a little better: Once per combat, before init is rolled, you can make a 5-foot step and make a single attack. It's hardly an "I win" card, since dazing is only a -2 penalty for 1 round.

Bulwark: A shield can only be in one place at a given time. Unless you wish to venture to the anime realm, I’d suggest you narrow it down to a single adjacent ally at a time.
Good idea.

Staggering Strike: “Fort save . . . or be knocked back 5 feet and staggered”

Can you knock back a great wyrm or a whale? I’d suggest making a successful attack count as Bull Rush.
Makes sense. But since it's a Fort save, larger creatures will generally have a better chance of resisting.

Rapid Strike: “Spells or abilities that grant extra attacks, like haste, do not work with this ability”. This kind of logical gymnastics has always irked my eye.
You obviously haven't seen some of the semantic debates over the years. If you don't make at least a marginal effort to close loopholes, players will abuse the hell out of things.


Spell Deflection: I’m so stealing this one from you and making it into a shield feat.
Thanks, but I think I stole it from PHB II.

Talons of the Beast: Another trophy for the loot. I just don’t know yet what will be the prereqs.
That one is courtesy of a guy another forum who was helping me with the first fighter revision. I would suggest Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike at the least.

Killing Blow: “This ability is not usable against constructs, elementals, incorporeal creatures, oozes, plants, or undead, but otherwise works against creatures that are resistant or immune to critical hits or death from massive damage, or that have damage reduction”

Can you explain this one?
Oh. Umm... Wow. I looked at that and just scratched my head. What I meant to say was "You can't use this ability creatures that aren't living or that have no discernable anatomy, as well as incorporeal creatures or plants. All other creatures are vulnerable to this ability, even if they are resistant or immune to critical hits or death from massive damage, or if they have damage reduction."

Does that make more sense?

Shield Wall: You mean “The fighter’s opponents treat the area...”, right?

Oh, and yes. Another trophy for the loot.
Yeah, that. And this is also courtesy of that other guy.

Uncanny / Improved come very late. So late that they aren't a factor in determining which class to choose. They are fairly helpful though.
Yeah, see my comments above.

Spell Parry is neat but comes out of nowhere. Doesn't do a thing for spells that don't require a ranged attack (most mental effects), that don't have a projectile element, or that hit an area (Fireball, Force Cage, etc.). Still, kind of nice and cool in an anime / superhero sort of way.
Problem is, it has to be useful for all fighters, whether or not they use a shield. If it were a shield feat/ability, I could easily add a bonus to Reflex saves like I did with Spell Deflection. It is a random ability, but since most fighters have low touch ACs, it could be useful. I might just make it a selectable ability instead and move IUD down to L13.

As far as force cage, I can honestly say that in 20 years of gaming, I've seen that spell used precisely once. It was a boss fight against a death knight, a blade bard (this was 2E) and sentient flesh golem; the party mage cast it on himself to protect himself from the knight (unfortunately for him, a ghost slipped through the holes in the bars and killed him).

Iron Mind does not require the "if it is higher" clause. The verb can makes it an option, one that will only be used when advantageous.
Got it. Good call.

Pain Resistance only works with itself, not with any other DR? That's ... kind of lame.
Ah, you're right. I looked at the Damage Reduction]Epic Feats :: d20srd.org feat; it says that it does stack with feats/class abilities, but not spells or items. I'll use that description instead.

Staggering Strike is ... awesome.
Is that good or bad?

So, you can't use Rapid Strike with Cleave / Great Cleave or Two-Weapon Fighting? How odd.
I hadn't considered Cleave, but yeah - it'll work. TWF is specifically called out - if you're attacking with two weapons, the extra attack is with the main hand.

Some pretty sweet abilities tucked in there. Definitely interesting but not necessarily good, given the levels they occur at and what other classes can do at those same levels. Still, pretty nice stuff for some of it.
*nod* It's a work in progress. I made some adjustments last night.

Combat Awareness helps solve the "invisible" problem.
I had to fix that one; my version of Blind-Fight negates invisibility without the Perception check (which is probably a bit overpowered for a feat with no prereqs), so I had to tone the feat down to give the -1/-2 AC bonus for concealed enemies, and give the fighter the same thing. If the fighter already has Blind-Fight, he reduces the concealment bonuses to 0 for both. I'm not sure if this would make BF a no-brainer feat for fighters or not; I guess it really depends on if the players fight a lot of concealed opponents. It still gives the fighter an edge over other PCs in that realm, though.

Spell Parry helps with some of the spells but not the real fight-enders.
I was thinking of giving the fighter an ability similar to Slippery Mind, maybe called Force of Will - he can make a second save to throw off mind-affecting abilities through sheer force of will.
 

Yay, more changes! I edited the lastest version of the fighter (see post above) to encompass the changes I made last night, as well as the ones suggested here.

I added an ability at 4th level. The class abilities were supposed to be 1, 4, 7, 10, etc., but I missed 4th level for some reason. So, I moved Uncanny Dodge to 4th (to match rogues), placed Iron Mind at 7th (it's better as a class ability), IUD at 10th (only slightly behind rogues), Combat Awareness at 13th (I was going to make it a combat ability, but the extra slot I found at 4th level let me keep it as a class ability), and added Force of Will at 16th.

Of the combat abilities, I fixed Dual Strike, Bulwark, Pain Resistance, and Killing Blow. Spell Parry is now a Master-level ability (it's roughly balanced against Spell Deflection), replaced Dire Charge with Repulse Attack (Repulse was too good for a feat, and Dire Charge was just weak), and replaced Staggering Strike with Pounding Strike (I'd moved PS to a feat, but I realized they were basically the same thing, and the mechanic for that one was much cleaner).

All I need now are another Adept-level ability and something for Lord of Battle and I'll be set. :D
 

Into the Woods

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