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Project Phoenix fighter discussion (Forked from: Feat Points)

I have an idea for Lord of Battle, it may be too good...

Lord of Battle: Once per round, when the fighter misses an attack against a creature whose AC is less than or equal to 10 + his class level, the attack hits.
 

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I have an idea for Lord of Battle, it may be too good...

Lord of Battle: Once per round, when the fighter misses an attack against a creature whose AC is less than or equal to 10 + his class level, the attack hits.
Yeah, it might be. Maybe something like, "Three times per day, the fighter can reroll any attack that misses by 5 or less. This represents the vagaries of luck and the fighter's skill in combat."?

Obviously it would need a bit more than that - that's pretty weak for a L19 ability - but it's a start.
 



Slight OT post regarding weapon groups: I've been waffling about this for over a week now, debating whether or not I really want to do it. Finally, I decided to make a list of pros and cons, and to see exactly how much work it would entail. As it turns out, not much - here's what I've got.

[[size large]]Weapon Groups[[/size]]

Weapons can be divided into several groups, as noted below.

[[div class="indent"]]
**Axes:** Battle axe, dwarven urgrosh*, dwarven waraxe*, greataxe, hand axe.[[/div]]

**Bows:** Composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, shortbow.

**Crossbows:** Hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, repeating crossbow*.

**Double Weapons:** Dire flail*, orc double axe*, quarterstaff, two-bladed sword*.

**Flails:** Heavy flail, light flail, nunchaku*.

**Heavy Blades:** Bastard sword*, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar.

**Light Blades:** Dagger, kukri, punching dagger, rapier, sai, short sword.

**Maces and Clubs:** Club, greatclub, heavy mace, light mace, morningstar, sap.

**Picks and Hammers:** Gnomish hooked hammer*, heavy pick, kama, light hammer, light pick, scythe, sickle, warhammer.

**Polearms:** Glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur.

**Slings and Thrown Weapons:** Dagger, dart, shuriken, sling.

**Spears and Lances:** Javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, trident.

**Unarmed:** Spiked gauntlet, unarmed strike.

**Whips and Chains:** Spiked chain*, whip*.

*This is an exotic weapon and has additional prerequisites for proper use. See the individual description for more details.

All classes would, of course, get a set number of weapon groups on creation. PrCs do not get any. I think I'll add that you can get a new weapon group every 6 points of BAB (the fighter gets them every 4, AND he can specialize, whereas no one else can), to eliminate dipping into a martial class for a load of weapons while still enabling PCs to get more WPs if they want them.

As far as simple/martial weapons: The main problem I had was figuring out what to do with them. I finally came up with a solution, which removed the final obstacle to instituting this system. All characters can use simple weapons in their groups without penalty. Martial weapons, however, require the MWP feat - it grants proficiency with any martial weapons in your groups. For example: Josef the mage takes Slings and Spears as his two groups. Of the weapons in his groups, the shuriken, javelin, lance, and trident are all martial - he suffers a -2 penalty to use them (as opposed to -4 for a weapon outside of his allowed groups). If he took the MWP feat, he could use all those weapons without penalty.

This most closely simulates advanced training without the kludgy simple/martial weapons system - some weapons, while similar to what you know, are just different enough that they require a little extra effort to learn to wield properly.

And finally, here's a list of weapon groups. The druid was too hard to assign groups to, so I finally just stuck with the basic list (plus bows). Martial arts uses a wide variety of weapons, so I just gave monks a choice of groups instead of a limited selection. All martial classes and monks get the MWP feat for free.

Barbarian: Any four; MWP free (I'm ditching the barbarian, but it's included in case anyone else wants to use this system).

Bard: Light blades, Slings, and one of the player's choice.

Cleric: Any three of the player's choice.

Druid: Bow (long and short), club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear, and natural attacks.

Fighter: Any four; MWP free

Monk: Any three; MWP free

Paladin: Any four; MWP free

Ranger: Bows + any three; MWP free

Rogue: Bows OR Crossbows, Light Blades, Slings

Sor/Wiz: Any two.
 

Slight OT post regarding weapon groups: I've been waffling about this for over a week now, debating whether or not I really want to do it. Finally, I decided to make a list of pros and cons, and to see exactly how much work it would entail. As it turns out, not much - here's what I've got...

I'd move punching dagger and sap to 'unarmed' along with cestus (essentially, the non-spiked version of guantlet). Make sap and punching dagger the martial versions of unarmed.

I'm really uncomfortable with the placement of rapier in the same group as Kukri, as they are nothing at all alike. Frankly, from a realism standpoint, the difference is stabbing weapons (dagger, rapier, estoc) vs. hacking/slicing weapons (kukri, broadsword, bastardsword).

I'm fairly uncomfortable with greatsword in the same class of weapon as longsword/warsword. Two-hands is very different than one hand.

Personal preference, I think sling and longbow should be exotic weapons.
 

I'd move punching dagger and sap to 'unarmed' along with cestus (essentially, the non-spiked version of guantlet). Make sap and punching dagger the martial versions of unarmed.
Cestus isn't in the PHB, but I'd agree. Sap is closer to a club, IMO. Punching dagger does use a punching action... it could fall under unarmed as a martial weapon.

I'm really uncomfortable with the placement of rapier in the same group as Kukri, as they are nothing at all alike. Frankly, from a realism standpoint, the difference is stabbing weapons (dagger, rapier, estoc) vs. hacking/slicing weapons (kukri, broadsword, bastardsword).
Yeah... It could go either way - kukri is a slashing weapon, but it's also Light. It's not a perfect fit

I'm fairly uncomfortable with greatsword in the same class of weapon as longsword/warsword. Two-hands is very different than one hand.
It's the same basic principle - just the blade is a bit longer and heavier. I could split bastard sword, greatsword, and falchion off into Great Blades (two-handers) and add daikatana as an exotic.

(Side note: While a couple of the cultures in the PP metasetting are semi-Oriental, katanas could really fit anywhere. I don't know if you've read Michael Stackpole's Cartomancy trilogy, but he has a fantastic culture based on elements of Japanese, Chinese, French, and a couple others. There are blademasters who use what amount to katanas, though they aren't called that.

Personal preference, I think sling and longbow should be exotic weapons.
Slings are peasant's weapons - they're very simple to make and use; shepherds use them to defend their flocks from wolves and other predators. Longbow... I dunno. I made it so that all composite bows have a Strength rating, and you must have that minimum Strength to use it (a la Odysseus' bow), so technically they're exotic. I could see requiring 13 Str to use a longbow effectively, though.
 

Slings are peasant's weapons - they're very simple to make and use; shepherds use them to defend their flocks from wolves and other predators.
Try using one and then say that. I doubt you'll be able to with a straight face.

By D&D rules, your typical shepherd would be about a level 9 Ranger (Favored Enemy: Animal +6, Aberration / Humanoid / Monstrous Humanoid / Magical Beast +2; Improved Critical [sling]; ranged combat style); not a level 2 Commoner. They need all those levels to make the crappy D&D sling be as nasty as it is in their hands.
Longbow... I dunno. I made it so that all composite bows have a Strength rating, and you must have that minimum Strength to use it (a la Odysseus' bow), so technically they're exotic. I could see requiring 13 Str to use a longbow effectively, though.
I'd go with 11.


Celebrim's point, I think, is that mastery of either weapon requires a level of dedication and training that is truly amazing; more, this training needs to begin before adolescence or true mastery will never be achieved. That screams "exotic". It also cries out for better stats than the sling has been getting (slings were respected weapons of war up through the Renaissance, uncommon weapons but respected for their deadliness and the incredible skill required to use them).
 

I'd go with 11.
Yeah, I was thinking that too. If I make it 13, there's no reason not to simply get a composite bow.

Celebrim's point, I think, is that mastery of either weapon requires a level of dedication and training that is truly amazing; more, this training needs to begin before adolescence or true mastery will never be achieved. That screams "exotic". It also cries out for better stats than the sling has been getting (slings were respected weapons of war up through the Renaissance, uncommon weapons but respected for their deadliness and the incredible skill required to use them).
Slings used to have bullets and stones, with different stats for each - sling bullets dealt 1d6, while stones were 1d4.

I looked up slings on Wikipedia. It's a fascinating article - apparently slings had a better range than longbows! They were widely employed in ancient armies, up until the Middle Ages, because they were much easier to make and were more commonly used than bows.

I'll make slings exotic, with a 13 Dex requirement, and add in stats for bullets and stones separately. I know they got rid of bullets for reasons of simplicity, but still - there appears to be a significant difference.
 

It's a fascinating article - apparently slings had a better range than longbows! They were widely employed in ancient armies, up until the Middle Ages, because they were much easier to make and were more commonly used than bows.
There was an excellent thread over at rpg.net perhaps a month ago, about slings vs. bows (among other things, of course) - worth checking out, IMO. Especially if you're interested in [more or less] realistic ranges - and probable accuracy at medium to long ranges - for either, and a few other things besides. . .

Anyway, another reason slings were still popular is that longbows are extremely demanding, physically. Basically, if you have to use one (of the old kind, not any modern variety) regularly for a long time, you'll end up with a kinda mutant arm, at least. Really stresses the body after a while, suffice it to say. And the training has to be a bit more intense, as well. Not that slings are easy to use, either. So yeah, exotic should work just fine for both, again IMO.
 

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