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Project Phoenix fighter discussion (Forked from: Feat Points)

Wow. Easier just to split this into two posts, since it was too long with both replies crammed together.

Don’t be offended, mate, but I think you’re getting at it with a totally wrong attitude.

Epic stuff is not about going to fight ultra powerful monsters that come to devour your solar system (unless you’re a kid that wants to play superman’s god or something). If +78 to hit & +257 to damage have become the bread & butter of your game, than you’d better think for yourself: “is it possible that my game is devolving rather than evolving?”.

Epic stuff is about thinking and operating on a far larger scale. Sure, you are supposed to be somewhat more powerful (or better yet – more capable) than a pre-epic character, but you overall personal power should now also come from things beyond stats & features.
Yeah, I know... I'm probably just not communicating that very well. Like I said, I'm not very good at very high level (25+) design. I want to get away from the ELH method of "everything's bigger! And badder!"

At some point during my design (well before I got to the legendary rules), scribbled down some notes on "tiers" and the expected breadth of the campaign:

At Courageous level, for example, the PCs would be saving villages and doing minor stuff - by the time they're L6, they would be known to the local ruler.

At Paragon level, they'd start moving out into the world (well, more), affecting things on a national level; by the time they're L12, they'd be known to the king (or whoever's running the nation), though they probably wouldn't be able to gain an audience without a good reason.

At Legendary, they would probably be hopping all over the world and making short forays into other planes; they plots they're involved in would be world-spanning. By the time they're L20, they'd be known to many rulers and even the common folk, and maybe even a few powerful extraplanars.
Of course, I never used the tier titles or even tiers as such - it was more of a guideline for design goals, like what kind of spells they'd be expected to have access to. All the plane-hopping spells, for instace, got bumped up a level or two to account for this.

As for the book I was talking about, this is it:

Mod Edit: link removed. Please do not use EN World to distribute materials to which you don't have the copyright
Shame, shame. You should know better. :p

Here’s a good place to start with before plunging into the book: Codex Immortalis
And once you’re done skimming through it, the following issues might also come in handy:
Paths to Immortality: Groups
Reaching beyond immortality

You see, I would do it myself, but my inspiration just doesn’t go as far as required to produce worthy epic-related material.
Same here. Upper Krust, as I mentioned, is really one of the best epic designers out there. His mechanics are a little shaky at times, but his imagination and creativity are parallel to none.

In the meantime, I’ll tell you about some characteristics that I think all immortals should have:
- The combined immunities associated with constructs, plants & undead.
Vs. mortals, or vs. any being? UK's rules are similar, except that a being of equal or higher rank can bypass those immunities.

- Immortal-level magical powers.
What kind?

- The ability to create/assume an avatar form and a mortal identity.
That's a given. The Divine SRD lists all the powers granted at each rank, which gives a good basis for a system.

Also, here is my suggestion for how epic progression should be handled:
- Beyond character level 20, AB improves at a rate of +1 per 5 levels. If one of your classes (base or PrC) happens to grant BAB that’s superior to your BAB achieved by level 20, take it instead and count epic progression (+1 per 5) for your remaining levels. Unlike BAB, epic AB has no effect on #Atk.
- For saves, use the progression rate noted above, but use base save modifier +12 rather than character level 20.
Why halt AB at L20, but let the same modifier go to +12?

- Disregard everything else that's related to Epic-level rules.
Hahahaha. I like that. :lol: There isn't much else, really... I've already integrated all the feats and skill uses that were worthwhile, and the spell system is beyond salvaging. Oh, and the monsters - they were worth saving, though it required a bit of work in some cases.

As for 10th level spells – maybe they can fit level 20 nicely. I tend to look at base-class level 20 as a container where all mortal capabilities should fit somewhere.
I thought about doing 10th level spells at L19, actually, since they would fit the progression, but I decided not to for some reason (I don't recall now). Some of the existing L9 spells like mass heal and wish got bumped to L10, so they'd still be around at pre-epic.
 

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>> Shame, shame. You should know better.
Ok, the book is called “Codex of the Immortals”, by TSR and it’s from 1992.
I guess you’ll manage the rest.


>> Same here. Upper Krust, as I mentioned, is really one of the best
>> epic designers out there. His mechanics are a little shaky at times,
>> but his imagination and creativity are parallel to none.
I’m not sure who or what Upper Krust is, but I’ll be sure to look it up


>> Why halt AB at L20, but let the same modifier go to +12?
I guess you meant “save modifier”.
That’s because:
a. Saves have no effect on other game mechanics (#Atk). A 20th level mage should never find himself in a situation where all that’s left for him to do is attack physically, so there’s no reason for any real development there. Mid-BAB classes are each a bag of tricks and they already have a decent attack power to go along with it. And martial classes are already at “the top of the food chain” as far as martial abilities go.
b. Saves are about survivability and while the power meter requires some serious breaks so that things don’t get overboard, it is only reasonable that epic characters would quickly become intrinsically as survivable as any mortal (though they are still mortals).
You know what. I think that given weapon speeds, epic AB should also be valid for #Atk (a pre-epic mage may still have his shot at a 3rd attack with the proper weapon anyway – but without having martial-grade AB).


>> What kind? (Immortal-level magical powers)
In the OD&D Immortal rules, each divine level/rank is characterized by so many Power Points.
Here are some uses for power points (pp) and temporal points (tp) that seem quite appropriate to me (I’ll leave the numbers and exact mechanics mostly to you):
- Create artifacts/relics (pp): Though the execution was lame, the book’s overall concept is the best I’ve seen so far. Basically, the idea is that what separates artifacts from regular magical items is that an artifact is a vessel that houses a portion of the immortal’s essence. The item itself might even be totally mundane or a willing living being, but the essence makes it virtually indestructible, with the exception of specific means defined by the creator – means that must be researchable & obtainable by mortals. An entire adventure (or even some) can revolve around finding and protecting/destroying an artifact. Other than that, an artifact should have a special power (or several – depending on its magnitude, which is capped by the creator’s rank) associated with the immortal’s portfolio that requires special means to activate and usually comes with a heavy price to pay.
- Create species (pp): an immortal may create an entirely new form of life (or unlife) having any physical and mental properties desired.
- Entrapment (pp): this power serves to bring violators of the immortal CoC to justice.
- Grant / deprive Access (tp): grants / deprives a specific mortal the ability to harness the immortal’s power for the purpose of casting clerical spells.
- Grant Immortality (pp – heavy toll): one mortal creature is ascended to immortality. The subject must have at least 1,000,000 XP.
- Hear Supplicants (tp): hear all the prayers made to it by its believers on that day/week/month/...
- Instant Metamagic (tp): A non-action application of metamagic to a spell.
- Reincarnation (pp): the immortal may take the soul of a dead sentient mortal and impregnate a mortal female of any specie within it.


>> That's a given. The Divine SRD lists all the powers granted
>> at each rank, which gives a good basis for a system.
Sorry. Couldn’t find anything in there about Avatar form or mortal identity, but mechanically speaking, these rules are definitely more solid than those in “Codex of the Immortals” (however, the book does have quite a few unique ideas to offer).


>> I thought about doing 10th level spells at L19, actually, since
>> they would fit the progression, but I decided not to for some
>> reason (I don't recall now). Some of the existing L9 spells like
>> mass heal and wish got bumped to L10, so they'd still be
>> around at pre-epic.
Ok, 19 seems reasonable, but which spells did you have in mind?
Beyond what’s already specified in my HR document (expect an update real soon), here are some spells/effects I had in mind:
- Genesis
- Miracle
- summoning an individual.
- summoning a demon prince (only via spell cabal)
- raising a mountain
- Heal/Harm – mass
 

I’m not sure who or what Upper Krust is, but I’ll be sure to look it up

Upper Krust is a person who happens to hang out on these very forums. He is, as I said, a high-epic designer who has since moved to 4E, but he has a site here and a forum here. When I said his mechanics were shaky, I really meant that they're based on the flawed 3.5 system - his work is pretty well balanced, though I find some of it a bit over the top. The inherent problems with 3.x epic play are what finally drove him to 4E design.

I guess you meant “save modifier”.
Yeah, typo.

a. Saves have no effect on other game mechanics (#Atk). A 20th level mage should never find himself in a situation where all that’s left for him to do is attack physically, so there’s no reason for any real development there. Mid-BAB classes are each a bag of tricks and they already have a decent attack power to go along with it. And martial classes are already at “the top of the food chain” as far as martial abilities go.
True, but you're talking about single-class PCs. I can count on one hand the number of PCs I've seen with more than 15 or so levels in a single class (excepting mages). And that's saying something - I used to play regularly on a Neverwinter Nights online world with hundreds of players. That's the main reason I wanted to "fix" the AB/save progression - so that multiclass PCs don't get shafted.

You know what. I think that given weapon speeds, epic AB should also be valid for #Atk (a pre-epic mage may still have his shot at a 3rd attack with the proper weapon anyway – but without having martial-grade AB).
But you'd still have to impose a cap on # of attacks, otherwise it scales into absurdity. I've found that by the fourth attack, only a fighter is going to hit anything, and that only rarely. I considered, early on, limiting total number of attacks to 3/hand (same progression - each new attack comes at +6 and +11, but you don't gain a new one at +16), but decided against it, probably because it required too many fundamental changes.

In the OD&D Immortal rules, each divine level/rank is characterized by so many Power Points.
Hmm. I seem to recall UK mentioned power points, or divinity points, or somesuch thing in his immortals system. He probably stole it from this.

Sorry. Couldn’t find anything in there about Avatar form or mortal identity, but mechanically speaking, these rules are definitely more solid than those in “Codex of the Immortals” (however, the book does have quite a few unique ideas to offer).
I could've sworn I saw a rule somewhere that states when a deity has enough power to manifest an avatar. I think it was DvR 5.

Ok, 19 seems reasonable, but which spells did you have in mind?
Beyond what’s already specified in my HR document (expect an update real soon), here are some spells/effects I had in mind:
Lessee... I bumped up miracle/wish (obviously) and mass heal/harm. Rather than go into a long involved explanation of my legendary spell system, I'll point you here; there's a link to the legendary spell rules/spells file and another for grand rituals (basically what you referred to with the summon demon lord spell).
 

>> True, but you're talking about single-class PCs.
>> I can count on one hand the number of PCs I've
>> seen with more than 15 or so levels in a single
>> class (excepting mages).
>> That's the main reason I wanted to "fix" the
>> AB/save progression - so that multiclass PCs
>> don't get shafted.
The problem is not AB/save progression, other than that I really find it more reasonable, fair and balanced to use the fractional approach.
The problem is that regardless of power level – the base classes are BORING.
- They have dead levels.
- There’s little variety to the things they can do. The few features they do have repeat several times as table fillers (SA & DR anybody?).
Now take the Wizard. The class itself is not all that powerful. There are just too many not so well thought of spells that enable a wizard to trump others too easily if he just manages to execute them. On top of that add several feats and magical items that allow the Wizard to shatter the action economy and you get a clear picture of the real problem with the Wizard class. A poorly designed wizard is by far the weakest character in a group, whereas a properly optimized one is by far the strongest character in a group (and some PrCs, like Icantatrix or Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil, are just begging for you to take them).
Now take a peek at my classes (both base & PrCs). With all the added rules, I made sure that the power meter doesn’t go up, but... the options man, the options. Each class is a notable bag of tricks. You only go PrC if this is how you envision your character, not to up the power meter or to dodge dead levels.
Except for Sauron (which was never meant to be a character anyway) and Leto Atreides II (a character with world-specific powers), I can’t imagine an archetype you cannot role with my classes and system.



>> But you'd still have to impose a cap on # of attacks,
>> otherwise it scales into absurdity. I've found that by
>> the fourth attack, only a fighter is going to hit
>> anything, and that only rarely.
I see no reason to do so.
Using my rules, the #Atk a 40th level character can make, equals the #Atk a 20th level Warrior can make under the same circumstances, plus 1.
At best.
That's it.
And that's provided s/he has a 20th-level-viable
20-levels-accumulation of class-combo with BAB +20 (this intricate phrase just says: "the order in which you make your level progression doesn't matter - the result would always be the same stat-wise").

 

The problem is not AB/save progression, other than that I really find it more reasonable, fair and balanced to use the fractional approach.
We're in agreement there.

The problem is that regardless of power level – the base classes are BORING.
Regardless, you should account for multiclassing - you can't build every single archetype with levels in only one class, can you? Plus there are PrCs (oh wait - did you ban those?).

Now take the Wizard. The class itself is not all that powerful. There are just too many not so well thought of spells that enable a wizard to trump others too easily if he just manages to execute them. On top of that add several feats and magical items that allow the Wizard to shatter the action economy and you get a clear picture of the real problem with the Wizard class.
Preaching to the choir.

And that's provided s/he has a 20th-level-viable 20-levels-accumulation of class-combo with BAB +20 (this intricate phrase just says: "the order in which you make your level progression doesn't matter - the result would always be the same stat-wise").
The problem with slowing AB down so far is that no one will be effective past L25 or so, even the fighters. As it is, with the normal EAB system, mid-BAB classes (cleric, rogue, monk) aren't very good in battle after L30.
 

>> Regardless, you should account for multiclassing – you​
>> can't build every single archetype with levels in only one​
>> class, can you? Plus there are PrCs (oh wait - did you ban those?).​
With my classes + PrCs + multiclasing ? (guess that answers your question)
I doubt it.


>> The problem with slowing AB down so far is that no one​
>> will be effective past L25 or so, even the fighters. As it is,​
>> with the normal EAB system, mid-BAB classes (cleric,​
>> rogue, monk) aren't very good in battle after L30.​
Let’s examine for a moment what’s available to a pre-epic group of characters:​
Weapon Supremacy​
+10 Str (or Dex, using my rules)​
+5 magical enhancement​
Ghost Touch
Wraith Strike
Fly​
D-Door​
Freedom of Movement​
Flanking​
Feint / Total concealment​
Battlefield control

Except for the 1st, all martial classes should have/use all the above on a regular basis by level 25.​
You don’t need more than the above to get by...... which makes my case even more valid that epic challenges should most of the times be different, not necessarily bigger number-wise.
That's the real challenge about running an epic-scale campaign.

 

With my classes + PrCs + multiclasing ? (guess that answers your question)
That's what I'm saying - you CAN make just about any archetype, but it could require levels in more than one class. Hence, "account for multiclassing".

Except for the 1st, all martial classes should have/use all the above on a regular basis by level 25.
How are they going to have/use fly and Ddoor? Fly, I can kind of see, but there are no items that I know of that grant the ability to DDoor.

You don’t need more than the above to get by...... which makes my case even more valid that epic challenges should most of the times be different, not necessarily bigger number-wise.
That's the real challenge about running an epic-scale campaign.
*nod* The last time I played epic was about 6 years ago, so my memory is a bit hazy, but it was a good deal of politics interspersed with combats vs. some nasty monsters. Some were really big (living war machines), and there was one I recall called the Flood (yeah, I think it was based on Halo).

Your assertion brings to mind the Dragon Mountain box set. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but was a 2E adventure/mini campaign; the PCs ended up going into a mountain inhabited by several different tribes of kobolds and an old red dragon (I think they worshipped it as a god). The adventure was designed for 15th-16th level PCs - that's roughly equivalent to L25 in 3.x - because of the sheer abundance of traps, sneaky tactics, and just plain nastiness they'd encounter. If you remade that in 3.x, with the ability to add class levels to humanoids... eek. I wish I still had it - I would so convert it.

The problem with epic design as it is now is that the only thing you CAN do is keep increasing the numbers - with immunities, the players' capacity to bypass almost any threat via teleport, DD, and even crazy high skill checks, save or suck effects etc., there's little a DM can do to challenge them without being heavy-handed (i.e., disjunction/antimagic fields, stealing the PCs' magic items, etc.). I'm sure you've seen all the feats that let you bypass part or all of a target's energy/sneak attack immunity, or other ridiculous things.
 
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The problem with epic design as it is now is that the only thing you CAN do is keep increasing the numbers - with immunities, the players' capacity to bypass almost any threat via teleport, DD, and even crazy high skill checks, save or suck effects etc., there's little a DM can do to challenge them without being heavy-handed (i.e., disjunction/antimagic fields, stealing the PCs' magic items, etc.). I'm sure you've seen all the feats that let you bypass part or all of a target's energy/sneak attack immunity, or other ridiculous things.
Use opponents that:
- Surprise
- Disarm
- Use battlefield control of various sorts (including Reverse Gravity and such)
- Lure
- Render them subject to crossfire
- Divide & Concur

Send them to an alternate reality where some of the laws of nature work differently (pocket dim anyone?) and use:
- Trap doors
- Revolving rooms
- Sliding walls
- Trap teleports

Ban stupid feats/rules/powers such as immunity breaching. If an opponent is immune to something – find something else.

Use spell turning and Mirror Screen (made this one up just now)


In a nutshell, be creative, but without it coming at the expense of credibility.
 

Use opponents that:
- Surprise
- Disarm
- Use battlefield control of various sorts (including Reverse Gravity and such)
- Lure
- Render them subject to crossfire
- Divide & Concur
I concur. *snicker* (You mean "conquer".)

Send them to an alternate reality where some of the laws of nature work differently (pocket dim anyone?) and use:
Not a bad idea.

Ban stupid feats/rules/powers such as immunity breaching. If an opponent is immune to something – find something else.
I just got rid of immunities on the whole.

Use spell turning and Mirror Screen (made this one up just now)
Mirror screen sounds interesting... what does it do?

In a nutshell, be creative, but without it coming at the expense of credibility.
Being creative is great, but it should be used in moderation or the DM will suffer burnout and the cool stuff will cease to be special (if every encounter is extraordinary, the extraordinary simply becomes the ordinary). Sometimes you just have to rely on a straight-up "kill the huge monster" fight.
 

And now for a slight left turn. I finished up the last two ranger favored terrain abilities (you can see the finished product here, if you're interested) and started work on the druid.

I was never really happy with the way the druid turned out - the masteries were a good idea in theory, but they didn't turn out so well in practice. The abilities were hard to create, and they ended up being pretty weak and non-useful overall. I do, however, want to keep them (because they're still a good idea), and I have some ideas.

The main problem with the druid, as I see it, is twofold: Natural Spell and wildshape. Banning the feat eliminates the first; for the second, I changed the rules so that a) you can only choose from a repertoire of forms (kind of like spells, but not nearly as many); and b) no form's ECL can be higher than your class level. This ensures that you don't choose something that's overpowered ("But its HD don't exceed my level!" *snort*), and the player doesn't stop play looking through all the books for a suitably broken form to take - with a set "stable" of forms, most players would be encouraged to simply keep the stats on a file card. And yes, I'm well aware of the problem with the difference in stats. I'm not sure that it would cause that much of a problem with the above fixes.

All the "new size" Wild feats from the ELH get condensed into a single class ability: Expanded Wildshape (see abilities for a full description). Vermin shape will go to the Vermin Lord (PrC); Dragon Shape will probably become a legendary class ability (in the PP meta-setting, dragons were originally formed from the elemental chaos, so they make a good high-level druidic form). Elemental and plant shapes remain the property of their respective masteries, but I changed things around a bit (see below).

The reason I cut wild shape back is that I don't feel this should be the druid's central ability. It should be a major ability, sure - something like the paladin's smite or a cleric's turning - but not their whole schtick. Druids are protectors of nature and all things living, opposed to those who would despoil it, as well as anything that goes against the natural order. The masteries are intended to let the druid focus on different aspects of nature - animals, plants, the earth, or weather - and become a warden, of sorts, for that aspect: Beastlords have ties to animals, Verdant Lords have power over the plant kingdom, Elemental Lords prevent natural disasters like earthquakes and eruptions, and Stormlords control the weather.

I'm leaning toward restricting the druid to one mastery, and each mastery has a pool of abilities to choose from, similar to the fighter. You can change masteries each time you gain a new ability, but you don't gain all the new abilities at once - you gain a new one at each level thereafter until you've hit your max. For example, a L11 druid decides to change his mastery from Elements to Weather; he loses all the Elements abilities and can choose one Weather ability at L11, one at L12, and the last at L13.

And that's it, so far. I'll toss out some abilities later, but I just wanted to get the general framework and comments on it. Favored terrain and one with nature are exactly like the ranger abilities; resist nature's lure and venom immunity are unchanged.


1st: Animal companion
2nd: Favored terrain
3rd: Druidic mastery
4th: One with nature
5th: Wild shape
6th: 2nd FT
7th: Druidic mastery
8th: Resist nature's lure
9th: Expanded wild shape
10th: 3rd FT
11th: Druidic mastery
12th: Venom immunity
13th: Expanded wild shape
14th: 4th FT
15th: Druidic mastery
16th: Speak with nature
17th: Expanded wild shape
18th: 5th FT
19th: Druidic mastery
20th: ??? (a generic druidic ability)


Speak with Nature (Su): All druids can speak to plants, animals, or the earth itself, depending on their chosen mastery. Beastlords can speak with animals, as the spell; Elemental Lords can communicate with stone, as the stone tell spell; Verdant Lords can speak with plants, as the spell; and Stormlords can speak with airborne creatures, as the speak with animals spell. This ability is usable at will.

Wild Shape (Su): 1 + Wis bonus times per day as standard action, a Beastlord can draw upon his ties with the nature and change into any animal and back again. In order to change into an animal, he must have studied any individual of its type, either alive or dead, for at least 3 rounds. Thereafter, he can add that animal to his list of allowed forms (see below). His options for new forms include all creatures with the Animal type.

When the druid gains this ability, he automatically starts with one animal shape of his choice, which must fulfill the above requirements. He can know up to one animal form per two class levels; each time he gains a new level, he can exchange an existing animal form for a new one, if he has reached his maximum.

This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 10 minutes per druid level, or until he changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time the druid changes form, he regains lost hit points as if he had rested for a night. The new form's ECL can't exceed the druid's class level, and its size can be two sizes smaller or (so a Medium druid could wild shape into a Tiny, Small, or Medium animal).

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to his true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on his body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

A druid loses his ability to speak while in animal form because he is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but he can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as his new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

Expanded Wild Shape: The druid can wildshape into a form one size larger or smaller than those currently allowed to him. Each time he gains this ability, he must choose larger or smaller. At each level he gains this ability, he also gains a new use of wild shape.

Each time the druid gains this ability, he can also choose a new form related to his mastery, of the type or subtype noted below:

Beastlord: Magical beast

Elemental Lord: Earth or Fire subtypes

Stormlord: Air subtype

Verdant Lord: Plant

The form chosen must comply with the restrictions noted under Wild Shape, above, except that the ECL can be equal to the druid's class level +2.
 

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