Project Phoenix fighter discussion (Forked from: Feat Points)

[Kerrick]

There's a difference between practically impossible (+40 or more to the DC, as the current Track rules treat a major blizzard) and actually impossible. It's the difference between Fire Resistance 90 and Immunity Fire; one's theoretically defeatable, the other is completely binary.
One of the few places I agree with Mr. Sean Reynolds is that 3.x D&D has way too many binary absolutes, and that these absolutes interact very oddly with the game world (Fire Giants that hide in lava pools to get surprise on the party: that's pretty danged strange).

True enough. I've read that article, and I wholly agree. I'll fix it.

Which First Strike does. It was introduced with the Ninja base class in one of the Complete books (Adventurer, I think); I'm confusing it with a series of feats with a similar ability and a different name. The gist is that it works like Sneak Attack but only on Flat-Footed targets; so only during a surprise round, on a successfully feinted target, or against a target that can't perceive you. You can find a copy here; simply scroll down to the First Strike entry.

That's cool. I'm yoinking that one.

If you want to turn the Ranger into a super-archer, you may want to get a look at the Iron Heroes class ARCHER. That is arguably the finest ranged combat class to ever enter a d20 system, and certainly the most interesting and powerful I've ever seen. A highly modified version of the Archer can be found here.

Really good stuff there. I'll be picking out a few abilities from that, too. I noted he has a variation of Hindering Shot...

Re: Evasion.
It may not fit with some of the other abilities but it is a mechanically solid choice for the (low) hp of the class. Which is exactly the same reason the Rogue gets it.

All right, I'll figure out somewhere to stick it.

1. We’ll get to the epic issue in a moment.
2. 4 terrains in 20 levels and you want to make a player waste one?! Bad mojo, dude.
3. Requiring feats would just be shoehorning.
I’d suggest you choose one of two options:
- Decide upon a level from which Advanced Abilities are acceptable and not overpowered.
- Dictate that they’re received automatically after so many levels with a favored terrain.

I was considering that, too, but it seems kinda kludgy to me. Somewhere around 12th level, though, sounds about right.

You’re not thinking BIG enough (does the name “Legolas” ring a bell?)

Yeah, but I haven't seen the movies in awhile.

Not every feature has to be awesomely powerful to be useful, interesting or thematically sound.

Try telling some of the other people here that.

Kind’a like Woodland Stride, but everywhere.

I buffed up Woodland Stride to encompass other natural terrain besides undergrowth (it's always bugged me that druids and rangers are assumed to only live/operate in forests). This is actually the original version, as I noted before, which I stole from the (revised) druid.

Saying that makes it clear that you just don’t grasp the huge gap (on so many levels) between martial classes and full spellcasters (defense, offence, action-economy, mobility, options, battlfield control, foresight and whatnot).

I know you haven't seen the changes to spells, so I'll let that one slide. Freedom of movement, however, doesn't just work against spells - it grants immunity to grappling, free action underwater (ooh, good idea for Aquatic terrain), ability to move through natural webs, etc.

Ok, this seems like an appropriate time to illuminate things in the proper light. Skill-wise & combat-wise, level 6 describes everything that’s humanly possible by the best of the best (a websight called “The Alexandrian” presents a wonderful analysis to back up this claim) and that probably in the entire human history there weren’t even 10 6th level individuals (De-Vinci, perhaps the greatest Ninja ever, king Leonidas maybe...).

*sigh* While you have a valid point, this isn't the real world.

Now consider this: they never rewrote a 3.5 version of the epic level handbook. Ever wondered why?

I know why.

1. 3e’s epic level rules don’t work. Everything in there is either sub-epic appropriate, reduced to nothing more than ZOMGWTF stat pumping or just too damn blurry to really figure out (mostly epic-level spells).

That's because a) it wasn't properly playtested (the playtest version was leaked early); and b) the designers had very little imagination.

You want to know the real reason? Because the system would have to have been revised from the ground up. I know, because I did it. Most of the things that make epic play so unplayable appear at non-epic levels - immunities, rampant skill increases, broken high-level spells like gate, etc.

The EAB/EAS system could have been fixed without changing any rules, but no one bothered, for whatever reason. It took me about two hours to figure out a workable system.

2. 3e’s epic level rules don’t really bring anything new to the gaming table. They all end up with the gage-meters passing the red zone and spinning erratically out of control.

Again, a lack of imagination. You should check out Upper Krust's material for high-level play. His site has a lot of free stuff on it. He's working off the flawed epic rules, but it's still really good material.

3. There’s enough potential to take your campaign wherever you wish it to go without epic-level rules.

To each their own. Some people like to play epic. However, I don't want to force someone to go that far simply to gain access to some non-epic class abilities.

4. Everything has a point at which it has gone as far as it can go – so should be the case for base classes.

Hence why I put a soft cap at L40. I've found that after that point, things start to fall apart, and unless you're using UK's material, it just gets harder and harder to find anything to do anyway. After L40 is pretty much godhood (even his system agrees on that point).

Level 20 is and should be the point where you squeezed just about everything you could possibly squeeze out of a particular class and that it’s time to move on. I mean, a level-20 base class should be no less than f#cking awesome.

Again, YMMV.

5. Given the above, according to your rules, only one human in 500 years could have the theoretical potential of getting exceptionally familiar with 2 terrains. With mine, there might be a freak of nature at some point of human evolution that would be able to get exceptionally familiar with 3, but 2 are definitely humanly possible every now and then.

Assuming that no one ever exceeds L6, sure. PCs aren't normal people - they're heros.

Then make it a feature and you’ll have something the Ranger can do that no one else can.

All right. Thing is, for every person like you who tells me "Make it a class ability!" I get one like Celebrim who says "Make it a feat!" It just proves the old paradigm: "You can't please everyone."

There’s no advantage in spreading 20 levels over 40 (not one that I could figure anyway).

I didn't got the 4E route. 20 levels still = 20 levels. Once you hit L21, you enter a new set of 20 levels. With the addition of scaling class abilities, you continue to gain those abilities at L21-40, instead of the current system of bonus feats. I know you're not interested in epic (you've made that abundantly clear), but check this out if you have a mind to - it's my legendary (revised epic) rules.

 

[Kerrick]

Okay, third version. I buffed up the stealth abilities quite a bit (now they're worth the levels at which they appear, IMO), adjusted a couple of the FT abilities and added a couple new ones, added a couple Bow Mastery abilities, re-added evasion (I found a place for it), and revised Hunter's Strike to conform to First Strike.

After some thought, I decided to move favored terrain to 4th level and every 4 after that. I was going to stick with my original plan because there are only 8 terrains, and getting 4 at non-epic and 4 at epic was a nice balance. One thing nagged at me, though - that damn empty 12th level. Then I had an idea: planar terrains. The Horizon Walker uses them; why not the ranger? Planar terrains would be a good ability for the legendary (epic) ranger, and would let me have 5 terrains at non-epic. I bumped it up to 4th on the thought that you have to spend a month in the terrain, and it IS a semi-advanced ability, and making them every 4 levels let me fill that 12th-level slot. And it makes 1st level not so loaded down.

I didn't list the Aspect of the beast abilities to save space - they're still in. I did change the Eagle to be usable for 1 round/level each time, with a 1-hour cooldown (eyestrain), but the others are still the same.

1st: 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy
2nd: Hunter's strike, Endurance, fast movement
3rd: Bow mastery I
4th: Animal companion, aspect of the beast, 1st favored terrain
5th: One with nature, 2nd FE
6th: HS +2d6
7th: Bow mastery II
8th: Evasion, 2nd favored terrain
9th: Aspect of the beast
10th: 3rd FE
11th: Swift tracker, bow mastery III
12th: 3rd favored terrain
13th: Aspect of the beast
14th: Camouflage, HS +4d6
15th: Bow mastery IV, 4th FE
16th: 4th favored terrain
17th: Hide in plain sight
18th: HS +5d6
19th: Bow mastery V, aspect of the beast
20th: Chameleon, 5th FE, 5th favored terrain


Favored Terrain: At 4th level, a ranger can select a terrain type from among the following: aquatic, desert, forest, hills, marsh, mountains, plains, and underground. He has spent so much time living in and attuning himself to the environment around her that he feels at home there.

Due to the ranger's experience in that environment, he gains a +2 bonus on Perception, Stealth, and Survival checks when using those skills in that environment, and on Knowledge (nature) checks made in association with that terrain type (or on Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, if he has selected Underground as a favored terrain). Each terrain type grants additional bonuses based on that terrain (see below), which can generally be used anywhere.

At 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels, the ranger can select an additional favored terrain; the bonuses given above apply to the new terrain, while he gains a further +1 to any terrains he already has. For example, a 5th-level ranger has two favored environments - one grants a +3 bonus on the appropriate skill checks, and the other grants a +2 bonus. At 10th level, he has three favored environments; one has a +4 bonus, one at +3, and one at +2. In order to gain a new terrain type, he must have spent at least a month (total, not necessarily all at once) in the terrain, getting acclimated to it and learning the ecology.

At 11th level, the ranger gains access to the advanced abilities. Each time he gains a new favored terrain, he can select one he already has to gain its advanced ability. For example, a ranger who has Forest and Desert reaches 11th level. He selects Plains as his new favored terrain and can also choose the advanced ability for Forest or Desert.

Aquatic: The ranger is at home in the water, either rivers, lakes, or the ocean. Most rangers who choose this terrain type are aquatic species – locathah, triton, etc. – but many landbound rangers who spend a lot of time on or near the water (on the shore or islands, e.g.) choose it also. A ranger with the aquatic favored terrain gains a +6 competence bonus to Swim checks; if he has a Swim speed, it is increased by 10 feet.

Advanced ability: The ranger can breathe underwater at will, though transitioning from air to water or vice versa requires a full minute to acclimate, during which he can take only a single move or standard action each round. He is not in danger of drowning during this time; he merely needs to adjust to breathing water or air.

Desert: The ranger is at home in a desert environment. He is resistant to extremes of heat and is not fatigued by extremely high temperatures (up to 140 F). He is also immune to the nonlethal effects of sandstorms (choking, being blinded, etc.).

Advanced ability: Once per day, the ranger can call up a dust storm to obscure his location, sweep away tracks, or confound enemies. This requires a full round of concentration; the storm covers an area 100 feet in radius. The ranger can have it centered on himself (in which case it remains mobile) or centered on a set point (it doesn't move), or set to move in a certain direction in a straight line. The storm acts as a fog cloud, except that anyone caught in it must also make a DC 15 Fort save each round or suffer 1d4 points of nonlethal damage from the choking sand and dust (creatures that don't breathe are immune to this effect). If the storm is set to move in a certain direction, it moves at a speed of 50 feet per round, sweeping away all tracks in its path and incurring a -20 penalty to Track rolls in that area. In any case, the storm lasts for 1 round per class level.


Forest: The ranger has spent a good deal of time in the forest (or jungle). He has learned how to camouflage himself and is a competent hunter; he gains a +4 competence bonus to Stealth checks and can move through trees (brachiation) at his normal speed.

Advanced ability: ???

Hills/Mountains: The ranger is attuned to the high peaks and unforgiving weather of the mountains. He is resistant to extremes of cold (down to -20 F) and does not take nonlethal damage from cold; he need make Fort saves to avoid fatigue only once per hour. He also gains a +4 competence bonus on Climb checks, or a 10-foot bonus to climb speed if he has one.

Advanced ability: Once per day, the ranger can call up a blizzard to obscure his location, sweep away tracks, or confound enemies. This requires a full round of concentration; the storm covers an area 100 feet in radius. The ranger can have it centered on himself (in which case it remains mobile) or centered on a set point (it doesn't move), or set to move in a certain direction in a straight line. The storm acts as a fog cloud, except that anyone caught in it must also make a DC 15 Fort save each round or suffer 1d4 points of nonlethal cold damage. If the storm is set to move in a certain direction, it moves at a speed of 50 feet per round, sweeping away all tracks in its path and incurring a -20 penalty to Track rolls in that area. In any case, the storm lasts for 1 round per class level.

Marsh: The ranger is at home among the dangerous plants and creatures of the swamps and bayous. He gains a +4 resistance bonus on saves vs. disease and poison, and a +4 competence bonus to Swim checks.

Advanced ability: The ranger gains some of the poisonous ability of the marsh's inhabitants. Three times per day, he can spit poison to a range of 10 feet. This requires a ranged touch attack to hit; a creature affected must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 ranger's class level + Wis mod) or become poisoned. The poison is a moderate neurotoxin that deals 1d4 points of Con damage as an initial and secondary effect.

Plains: The ranger is at home among the rolling grasslands, prairie, or tundra, and is accustomed to running for long distances in the open. He gains the Run feats for free, and gains a +4 bonus to Perception checks to spot things.

Advanced ability: ???

Underground: The ranger is accustomed to the close, dark spaces of caves and tunnels. He can make a DC 10 Survival check to determine how far underground he is, and which direction is true north (if he has 5 or more ranks in Survival, he doesn't need to make a check). He also gains a +4 bonus to Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks.

Advanced ability: The ranger can use sound, scent, and differences in air pressure to navigate blindly. In effect, he can move at normal speed in darkness or when blinded, and creatures with concealment gain only half their normal AC bonus (+1 for partial concealment or +2 for total) against the ranger's attacks.

Hunter's Strike (Ex): If a ranger makes a ranged attack on a flat-footed opponent within 30 feet and it hits, it deals an additional +1d6 points of sneak attack damage. This applies to the first attack only, and cannot be used in combat, but it can be used in conjunction with any of the Bow Mastery abilities. The bonus damage increases to +2d6 at 6th level, +3d6 at 10th, +4d6 at 14th, and +5d6 at 18th.

One With Nature (Ex): A ranger can move through any sort of undergrowth or difficult terrain (natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, soft sand, scree, etc.) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him, however.

If he is in his favored terrain, he also leaves no trail (making him impossible to track). He can choose to leave a trail if he wishes.


Bow Mastery (Ex): A ranger is trained in the bow as a primary weapon; at 3rd level and every five levels thereafter, he gains a number of abilities that reflect this training. The benefits of these feats or abilities can be used only if the ranger is wearing medium or lighter armor and using a bow. At each level of mastery, the ranger can choose a ranged weapon feat for which he qualifies as a bonus feat, or he can choose from among the abilities below. If the ability has prerequisites, the ranger must meet them to choose it.

Combat Archery: The ranger is experienced enough with his bow that he can use it in combat without provoking attacks of opportunity. Prerequisites: Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +12.

Hindering Shot: The ranger aims for the target's legs, slowing it. A hit that deals damage reduces the target's speed by 5 feet for 1 round. If the shot is a critical hit, it slow the target for 2 rounds. Multiple hits are cumulative - that is, each hit decreases the target's speed by 5 feet (to a minimum of 1/4 the original speed) and the duration by 1 round (no limit). Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Penetrating Shot: When making an attack with a bow, the ranger can bypass 5 points of a target's DR or an object's hardness. This stacks with the bow's enhancement bonus or any effects gained from class abilities or materials like adamantine arrows. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Power Shot, base attack bonus +10.

Power Shot: A ranger's shots are so powerful that he can literally knock targets off their feet. If the shot hits, treat it as an opposed trip maneuver check. The target must make an opposed Strength check (DC = damage) or be knocked prone. It can rise normally on the next round. Creatures that are resistant to being tripped gain their bonus against this effect as well. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.

Sniper Shot: The ranger can make a single shot as a standard action, with a +4 bonus. If the shot hits, it's an automatical critical hit. If the ranger has sneak attack or a similar ability, he can also add this damage if it applies. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Killing Shot: The ranger can make a single shot as a standard action, with a +4 bonus. If the shot hits and the target fails a Fort save (DC 10 + damage dealt), it is reduced to -1 hit points. Prerequisites:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sniper Shot, Improved Precise Shot, base attack bonus +16.

Camouflage: A ranger can use the Stealth skill to hide in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment. He can move up to his normal speed and remain hidden without penalty, and can make a ranged attack and hide again with a -10 penalty instead of -20 (see the Stealth skill).

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide even while being observed. When attempting to hide after making a ranged attack, he suffers no penalty instead of -10.

Chameleon (Ex): The ranger is so attuned to the environment around him that if he stands still for a full round and focuses on being hidden, he effectively becomes invisible (he gains a +20 bonus to Stealth checks to remain silent as well as hidden). Thereafter, he can move at his normal speed and remain hidden without penalty, or he can run with a -10 penalty. He can also make one ranged attack per round without revealing himself, provided he is at least 10 feet from his target. He can otherwise remain this way for as long as he desires; spells like see invisibility will not reveal him, since he isn't actually invisible, but true seeing will show his location.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Favored Terrains: I'll have to think about it some more before I offer an opinion.

Hunter's Strike (Ex): If a ranger makes a ranged attack on a flat-footed opponent within 30 feet and it hits, it deals an additional +1d6 points of sneak attack damage. This applies to the first attack only, and cannot be used in combat, but it can be used in conjunction with any of the Bow Mastery abilities. The bonus damage increases to +2d6 at 6th level, +3d6 at 10th, +4d6 at 14th, and +5d6 at 18th.

Emphasis mine.
So, it can only be used during target practice. Because as soon as you declare an attack against a creature, combat has started. That's how d20 combat works. Doesn't matter if Initiative has been rolled, merely that combat actions have been declared upon other creatures; combat has now started and Hunter's Strike can never be used.

One With Nature should include mention of Spike Stones to emphasize that it applies to all terrains, not just undergrowth and forests.

The following abilities (Bow Mastery, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, and Chameleon) look okay, though.

 

[nonsi256]

Yeah, but I haven't seen the movies in awhile.

I did just a few days ago (the extended version, of course)... the magic hasn’t faded even a bit.

Try telling some of the other people here that.

The idea behind Close Combat Archery being a fixed feature is that while a fighter can learn any trick shot in the book, what separates the Ranger is the amount of time actually holding the weapon on a daily basis – the thing that allows him to move with it like no one else.

Freedom of movement, however, doesn't just work against spells - it grants immunity to grappling, free action underwater (ooh, good idea for Aquatic terrain), ability to move through natural webs, etc.

and that’s a bad thing for a 17th level in THE class that embodies mobility & agility, because...

*sigh* While you have a valid point, this isn't the real world.

No, but the great appeal of D&D to so many out there (yours truly included) is making things as realistic as possible (as long as it’s not at the expense of gameflow). This strengthens the sense of bond with one’s character immensely.

Again, a lack of imagination. You should check out Upper Krust's material for high-level play. His site has a lot of free stuff on it. He's working off the flawed epic rules, but it's still really good material.

I’m not paying for anything on the web, so I guess I’ll have to live with the ignorance.

To each their own. Some people like to play epic. However, I don't want to force someone to go that far simply to gain access to some non-epic class abilities.

Now you start following my pattern of thought.

Hence why I put a soft cap at L40. I've found that after that point, things start to fall apart, and unless you're using UK's material, it just gets harder and harder to find anything to do anyway. After L40 is pretty much godhood (even his system agrees on that point).

1. After 20 levels in the same class, things start to get boring.
2. Single classed godhood is false godhood in my book.

Again, YMMV.

It’s not just about mileage – it’s about design goals and how I want things to work as an ideal.

I know you're not interested in epic (you've made that abundantly clear), but check this out if you have a mind to - it's my legendary (revised epic) rules.

It’s not an ethos issue. I really have no problem with the concept of epics, but in order to be worth a damn, epic rules really have to bring something totally new to the gaming table.

No offense, but I find many annoying aspects in your epic progression rules (I’m regarding only what appears in the website) for just about all classes.
1. As far as the martial classes go, I cannot find anything NEW that any of them brings to the table at levels 21 through 40. Absolutely nothing. Not a single goddamn thing (no offense meant, just an unsubtle emphasis).
2. As far as features in general go, neither do spellcasters. All 21 through 40 levels.
3. Funny that the Monk’s epic BAB progression rate is faster than the Fighter’s
4. Speaking of the Monk... Featherfall is a 1st-level spell last time I checked (that was a hint).
5. Ki Strike is unimaginative and brings full BAB from the back door.
6. Pure Wizards & Sorcerers gaining 4 attacks?! What the hell for? This is anti-thematic if there ever was one.
7. I can imagine Genesis, permanent gates & summoning an individual would fit 10th level, but what exactly is supposed to happen at spell-levels 11 through 16? More ZOMGWTF stuff?!
8. With the exclusive exception of BAB, Each of my martial base classes outguns and outshines at level 20 each of your martial base classes at level 40 – and they’d still require a lot of strategy, tactics and luck to survive a decently (not brilliantly) roleplayed fullaster of equal level.
9. At those levels, all the options available at the characters’ fingertips and the players’ imagination should outweigh stats as far as overcoming challenges. As far as epic BAB, I totally agree with the epic handbook for slowing things down dramatically (it’s just the execution that was really lacking in style – out of pure laziness (Wizard 20 / Fighter 20 having lower BAB than Fighter 20)).
10. Dead levels.

Ok, “where are you getting at”, you might be asking yourself by now.
Well, it goes like this. Take OD&D’s Immortal rulebook (“Codex of the Immortals”) for instance. The rules in there really did bring something totally new to the gaming table – on that part the book was a brilliant success. I also think that a lot of stuff in there can be used as a good basis for inspiring solid epic (stuff of legend), exalted (demigodhood) & divinity (godhood) rules.



As for your lastly reworked Ranger.
Definitey an improvement, but I really feel strongly about the Ranger really needing to master all 7 terrains (they're very well defined, btw) by level 20.

 

[Kerrick]

So, it can only be used during target practice. Because as soon as you declare an attack against a creature, combat has started. That's how d20 combat works. Doesn't matter if Initiative has been rolled, merely that combat actions have been declared upon other creatures; combat has now started and Hunter's Strike can never be used.

Ah. Gotcha. My intent was that it shouldn't be used like sneak attack - i.e., standing right next to the guy and getting HS, but Combat Archery pretty well obviates that.

One With Nature should include mention of Spike Stones to emphasize that it applies to all terrains, not just undergrowth and forests.

"A ranger can move through any sort of undergrowth or difficult terrain... Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him, however."

The following abilities (Bow Mastery, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, and Chameleon) look okay, though.

Good deal.

The idea behind Close Combat Archery being a fixed feature is that while a fighter can learn any trick shot in the book, what separates the Ranger is the amount of time actually holding the weapon on a daily basis – the thing that allows him to move with it like no one else.

Like Legolas in the battle at the keep. That's one of the main things I remember from the movies - him shooting two uruk-hai at once, poking one in the eye and then using the same arrow to shoot another, and him skating down the stairs on a shield while shooting arrows (we figured it was about a DC 30 Balance check).

and that’s a bad thing for a 17th level in THE class that embodies mobility & agility, because...

The monk truly embodies mobility and agility, as does the rogue, and they don't get it.

No, but the great appeal of D&D to so many out there (yours truly included) is making things as realistic as possible (as long as it’s not at the expense of gameflow). This strengthens the sense of bond with one’s character immensely.

Same here, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief a bit - after all, this is a game that uses magic and contains creatures that exist nowhere but in our imaginations. I don't like the idea of my character being able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but as I haven't yet found a way to deal with it without going the E6 route, I'll have to live with it.

I’m not paying for anything on the web, so I guess I’ll have to live with the ignorance.

Free stuff? Huh?

1. After 20 levels in the same class, things start to get boring.
2. Single classed godhood is false godhood in my book.

I tend to agree with you, but again, I'm designing a system for the masses, not just for myself. And there are gods with 20 levels in a single (or even two) class - quite a few of them, in fact.

It’s not an ethos issue. I really have no problem with the concept of epics, but in order to be worth a damn, epic rules really have to bring something totally new to the gaming table.

Okay.

1. As far as the martial classes go, I cannot find anything NEW that any of them brings to the table at levels 21 through 40. Absolutely nothing. Not a single goddamn thing (no offense meant, just an unsubtle emphasis).

Watch your language. We have a Grandma Rule here.

Anyway, that's mainly due to my lack of ability - I'm not a very good high-level designer. I would love to be able to design stuff for the legendary classes, and I think the new revisions to the base classes will help in that regard. I mainly put them up for other designers - it's a base they can use to create their own legendary classes (hence why everything on the site is OGC).

3. Funny that the Monk’s epic BAB progression rate is faster than the Fighter’s

That's because he keeps the normal progression (2/3) from +16 to +20, then slows to 1/2 the rest of the way.

4. Speaking of the Monk... Featherfall is a 1st-level spell last time I checked (that was a hint).

Which means that slow fall at any level is useless.

5. Ki Strike is unimaginative and brings full BAB from the back door.

It was changed to conform with the new DR system. You know, to make sure they remain effective in combat?

6. Pure Wizards & Sorcerers gaining 4 attacks?! What the hell for? This is anti-thematic if there ever was one.

*shrug* It's part of the altered BAB progression. I can't just say "No, you don't get any more attacks because you suck."

7. I can imagine Genesis, permanent gates & summoning an individual would fit 10th level, but what exactly is supposed to happen at spell-levels 11 through 16? More ZOMGWTF stuff?!

If you call large-scale spells like raising mountains ZOMGWTF stuff, then yes. There's nothing wrong with that.

9. At those levels, all the options available at the characters’ fingertips and the players’ imagination should outweigh stats as far as overcoming challenges.

Yeah.

As far as epic BAB, I totally agree with the epic handbook for slowing things down dramatically (it’s just the execution that was really lacking in style – out of pure laziness (Wizard 20 / Fighter 20 having lower BAB than Fighter 20)).

As do I - that's why you'll note that I switch over to the 1/2 BAB progression at BAB +20. You might also note that everyone has the same BAB at L40.

10. Dead levels.

I think we've been through this discussion before.

Ok, “where are you getting at”, you might be asking yourself by now.
Well, it goes like this. Take OD&D’s Immortal rulebook (“Codex of the Immortals”) for instance. The rules in there really did bring something totally new to the gaming table – on that part the book was a brilliant success. I also think that a lot of stuff in there can be used as a good basis for inspiring solid epic (stuff of legend), exalted (demigodhood) & divinity (godhood) rules.

As for your lastly reworked Ranger.
Definitey an improvement, but I really feel strongly about the Ranger really needing to master all 7 terrains (they're very well defined, btw) by level 20.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. If you want to create your own version of my ranger, feel free - it's all OGC.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Like Legolas in the battle at the keep. ... (we figured it was about a DC 30 Balance check).

What!? How the heck did you get that?
Shield is 7-12 inches wide or wider. If balancing on it required a check, it would be DC 10.
Surface is also DC 10, if it required a check at all.
It was "sloped or angled" (+2), and may have counted as "lightly obstructed" (+2).
Impose the "Accelerated Movement" penalty (-5) because he was moving a lot during that scene.
Applying the penalty as an increased DC, the DC is now 19 (10 + 2 + 2 + 5).
For reference, I based all my numbers on the SRD.

The monk truly embodies mobility and agility, as does the rogue, and they don't get it.

That's an argument for giving it to all three classes, not for preventing the Ranger from having it.

Same here, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief a bit - after all, this is a game that uses magic and contains creatures that exist nowhere but in our imaginations. I don't like the idea of my character being able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but as I haven't yet found a way to deal with it without going the E6 route, I'll have to live with it.

If you don't like characters going into superhuman and demigod levels of ability then don't play those parts of the game. Those parts of the game are levels 6 through 20. As the essay nonsi referenced points out, the "real world" range of D&D ends at level 5; everything after exceeds the maximums placed throughout recorded history (excepting lifting strength, whose human max is actually around strength 23).

I tend to agree with you, but again, I'm designing a system for the masses, not just for myself. And there are gods with 20 levels in a single (or even two) class - quite a few of them, in fact.

And all of them are mortals that achieved godhead, not natural deities.

Which means that slow fall at any level is useless.

No. It means that slow fall at any level is as balanced as feather fall at first level.
It's not useless because the character's not relying upon another character class, or item, to provide the ability.
Is Weapon Focus useless because magic weapons exist? Is Improved Critical useless because the Keen enchantment exists? No, they are not.

It was changed to conform with the new DR system. You know, to make sure they remain effective in combat?

The inconsistent and incomplete DR system?

Having the proper bonus does not automatically bypass the entire reduction factor, however; a weapon is treated as being one plus lower for purposes of bypassing DR

THAT is the first mention of a level of enhancement affecting the amount of DR that is bypassed. NOWHERE in the DR section is it explicitly stated how this partial bypassing works.
That's utterly unacceptable and would cause me to never use DR as written, ever, if I were to use Project Phoenix.

*shrug* It's part of the altered BAB progression. I can't just say "No, you don't get any more attacks because you suck."

An alteration that combines with the altered save progression to be utterly unplayable.
Fighter 20 / Barbarian 20 has a base Will save of +12 (BAB +30). A Cleric 20 / Druid 20 has a base Will save of +22 (BAB +27).
In a d20 system, 10 points, before ability scores, is too great a variable. Realistically, this is a variance of at least 17.
That's simply too freaking wide.
The 6 point base variance found in the 3.x Epic rules is barely tolerable (practical difference of +13), with a number of Can't Fail / Can't Succeed combination occurring. You've exacerbated the problem by allowing an even wider gap to form.

As do I - that's why you'll note that I switch over to the 1/2 BAB progression at BAB +20. You might also note that everyone has the same BAB at L40.

Um, no they don't. Full-BAB has +30. 3/4 BAB has +27. 1/2 BAB has +20. And Wiz 20 / Fight 20 has a +25. You've still got a 10 point gap between the best and the worst, but the Medium and the Best are almost identical. CoDZilla reigns supreme.


Miles to go before you reach your stated goals. Good luck seeing through the mirages.

 

[Kerrick]

Ok, “where are you getting at”, you might be asking yourself by now.
Well, it goes like this. Take OD&D’s Immortal rulebook (“Codex of the Immortals”) for instance. The rules in there really did bring something totally new to the gaming table – on that part the book was a brilliant success. I also think that a lot of stuff in there can be used as a good basis for inspiring solid epic (stuff of legend), exalted (demigodhood) & divinity (godhood) rules.

I wish I could find a copy. I did a search last week and turned up nothing. Upper Krust (a high-epic designer) has a book called Ascension, which has rules for divinity and such. I might pick it up to see what all he's got.

That's an argument for giving it to all three classes, not for preventing the Ranger from having it.

Weren't you the one who advocated against immunities?

And all of them are mortals that achieved godhead, not natural deities.

They're still gods, aren't they? What difference does it make how they got there?

No. It means that slow fall at any level is as balanced as feather fall at first level.

So explain to me what nonsi's point was, because I'm missing it entirely.

THAT is the first mention of a level of enhancement affecting the amount of DR that is bypassed. NOWHERE in the DR section is it explicitly stated how this partial bypassing works.

The original text (which has since been revised for clarity) read:

Weapons with an enhancement bonus can bypass damage reduction other than magic; the bonus needed for each type is listed below.

---Table---

Having the proper bonus does not automatically bypass the entire reduction factor, however; a weapon is treated as being one plus lower for purposes of bypassing DR (for example, a +3 sword bypasses only 10 points of damage reduction against a creature with DR 20/cold iron). This means that a +1 weapon is completely ineffective against creatures with DR types other than magic. When applied to DR /magic, the entire enhancement bonus is applied – the +3 sword will bypass 15 points of DR 20/magic.

Yes, it was unclear, but your assertion that it wasn't stated at all is clearly false.

That's utterly unacceptable and would cause me to never use DR as written, ever, if I were to use Project Phoenix.

So... you're condemning it because I accidentally left out a sentence? Granted, it's a rather important one, but still - not worth throwing a fit over.

An alteration that combines with the altered save progression to be utterly unplayable.
Fighter 20 / Barbarian 20 has a base Will save of +12 (BAB +30). A Cleric 20 / Druid 20 has a base Will save of +22 (BAB +27).

Wrong-o. The Ftr 20/Bbn 20 is BAB +30, Fort +22, Ref +17, Will +17*. The Clr 20/Drd 20 is BAB +30, Fort +22, Ref +17, Will +22. See, I use the fractional BAB/save system, in addition to the altered progression. (At this point, I should thank you for pointing this out; I added the fractional BAB/saves well after I came up with this, so it was a good opportunity to go over things and make sure it still worked - and it does, like a charm).

*Let's say, for the sake of illustration, that you have a Ftr 20/Pal 20 - this gives us a combination of two good saves (Fort), two bad saves (Ref), and one of each (Will). The PC thus ends up with Fort +22, Ref +17, Will +20.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a workable alternate epic progression. I quickly found out that simply extending the existing progression into infinity wouldn't work, so I played around with things until I hit on the current idea. I tested it with several combinations of classes, against the EAB/EAS system, and even took the average CR/AC of a creature from the ELH (using Upper Krust's CR rules and a formula someone gave me for expected BAB/saves at any given level) to compare my BABs to those ACs. The last isn't very scientific, granted, but it's the best I could do short of actual playtesting. Want to see my notes? I'll happily share them with you or anyone else who wishes to challenge my results: http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/...gn-and-development/legendary progressions.zip

Um, no they don't. Full-BAB has +30. 3/4 BAB has +27. 1/2 BAB has +20. And Wiz 20 / Fight 20 has a +25. You've still got a 10 point gap between the best and the worst, but the Medium and the Best are almost identical. CoDZilla reigns supreme.

Wrong again. I see where your mistakes are coming, though: all BAB progressions, regardless of the order of your classes or how many you take, continue to +20. Only after that point does the EAB kick in and your BAB reverts to +1/2 levels. And that IS clearly stated, right here.

I can't find the quote now, but you made reference to a monk's BAB advancing faster than a fighter's. It's actually the reverse - the fighter's progression is slower. A small distinction, but an important one - the fighter's progression is slowed to let the monk's "catch up", as it were. Once they're even, they increase at the same rate. All BABs, regardless of class composition, advance at the exact same rate after L40 - you can be L4000 and still have the same AB as the L4000 guy next to you. This is part of the reason I placed the cap at L40.

Slowing the faster AB progressions provides better balance, as we've seen from the ELH, but they failed to let the slower ones catch up - without this rule, you'll end up with the result you stated above: +30, +27, and +20. Which isn't bad, all things considered, since mages very rarely get into melee combat, and any spells they use are either touch or ranged touch, but you still have to worry about order of class levels up to L20. My system, along with the fractional BAB/saves, eliminates that concern. You want a L35 PC with levels in 6 classes? No problem! Tot up the BABs and save bonuses, and off you go.

(I should admit at this point, however, that the system needs a good deal more explanation and examples. I'll take care of that soon, since I'm going to be updating the legendary classes as well.)

As for mages getting 4 attacks... it's a side effect of the system. I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out how to make exceptions for corner cases like this that have little to no effect on game balance.

 

[ValhallaGH]

First, I'd like to take a moment to bring down the temperature of this discourse. I am actually trying to be helpful, I'm just an acerbic ass.

Weren't you the one who advocated against immunities?

I do. I also advocate against high-level spells since the vast majority are "I win!" buttons that a player (or villain) can smash repeatedly. At high levels, not getting instantly removed is a larger concern; I'm not happy about that but that's one of the realities of high level play.

They're still gods, aren't they? What difference does it make how they got there?

For the purposes of our discussion, the level of divinely powerful creatures, it matters a lot. Zeppo the Clown is a level 1 Expert that stumbles across the Genie of Divinity and is instantly granted 12 Divine Ranks, becoming Zeppo, the God of Clowns. He's still a level 1 Expert. Does this mean that all level 1 Experts are gods? No.
Saying that characters achieve godhead at level 20 just because a couple level 20 adventurers lucked their way into divinity is equally inaccurate.

Yes, it was unclear, but your assertion that it wasn't stated at all is clearly false.

No. Nowhere in your text does it tell me that there is a system where I only bypass part of DR, and that X is the formula for how much I bypass. There is an example that suddenly and randomly mentions it, without explaining it I'll add, but that is all.

Wrong-o. The Ftr 20/Bbn 20 is BAB +30, Fort +22, Ref +17, Will +17*. The Clr 20/Drd 20 is BAB +30, Fort +22, Ref +17, Will +22.

Whoops, I missed the increase in the poor saves to 4/10 level instead of 1/3 level. That's the difference.

Wrong again. I see where your mistakes are coming, though: all BAB progressions, regardless of the order of your classes or how many you take, continue to +20. Only after that point does the EAB kick in and your BAB reverts to +1/2 levels. And that IS clearly stated, right here.

See, now you're just repeating that I'm wrong, even when I'm not. I saw that note (though I missed the Fractional Progressions, altering the math slightly).
Full Bab = 20 + 10 (1/2 * 20) = 30
3/4 BAB = 20.25 (3/4 * 27) + 6.5 (1/2 * 13) = 26.75 = 26
1/2 BAB = 20 (1/2 * 40) = 20

If anyone is wrong, it's your Legendary class tables, since 3/4 BAB does not reach +27 by 40th level.

I can't find the quote now, but you made reference to a monk's BAB advancing faster than a fighter's.

That was nonsi, not me. And no one ever catches up, the gaps just gets smaller for classes / characters with a BAB progression better than 1/2.

As for mages getting 4 attacks... it's a side effect of the system. I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out how to make exceptions for corner cases like this that have little to no effect on game balance.

Seriously? The ELH fixed the issue with one sentence. Paraphrased: Thou Shalt Not Gain Iterative Attacks After Character Level 20.
Did you have to plan your pre-20 progression? Sure. Did this complicate epic level character creation? Sure. Did it solve the problem you've twice refused to look at solving? You betta believe it.

 

[nonsi256]

Hey Kerrik,



Don’t be offended, mate, but I think you’re getting at it with a totally wrong attitude.
Epic stuff is not about going to fight ultra powerful monsters that come to devour your solar system (unless you’re a kid that wants to play superman’s god or something). If +78 to hit & +257 to damage have become the bread & butter of your game, than you’d better think for yourself: “is it possible that my game is devolving rather than evolving?”.
Epic stuff is about thinking and operating on a far larger scale. Sure, you are supposed to be somewhat more powerful (or better yet – more capable) than a pre-epic character, but you overall personal power should now also come from things beyond stats & features.


As for the book I was talking about, this is it:

Mod Edit: link removed. Please do not use EN World to distribute materials to which you don't have the copyright

Be aware that Rapidshare tries to wear you down so you acquire a premium account, so you’ll probably be denied download access for quite some time, but don’t despair and retry until you’re granted access.
The important thing is that when you do get access, be patient and wait for the countdown and be quick to start downloading since there’s an expiration timeout (quite a short one).
And don’t worry about legal issues, since nobody’s selling this book anymore.


Regarding the book itself.
The rules are somewhat naïve and maybe even retarded compared to the 3e mechanics, but there’s a lot of useful stuff in there:
- Pantheons & groups.
- Immortal spells – the kind of spells mortals should never have access to.
- Plots & the immortal goals.
And much more.

Here’s a good place to start with before plunging into the book: Codex Immortalis
And once you’re done skimming through it, the following issues might also come in handy:
Paths to Immortality: Groups
Reaching beyond immortality


You see, I would do it myself, but my inspiration just doesn’t go as far as required to produce worthy epic-related material.


In the meantime, I’ll tell you about some characteristics that I think all immortals should have:
- The combined immunities associated with constructs, plants & undead.
- Immortal-level magical powers.
- The ability to create/assume an avatar form and a mortal identity.


Also, here is my suggestion for how epic progression should be handled:
- Beyond character level 20, AB improves at a rate of +1 per 5 levels. If one of your classes (base or PrC) happens to grant BAB that’s superior to your BAB achieved by level 20, take it instead and count epic progression (+1 per 5) for your remaining levels. Unlike BAB, epic AB has no effect on #Atk.
- For saves, use the progression rate noted above, but use base save modifier +12 rather than character level 20.
- Disregard everything else that's related to Epic-level rules.

As for 10th level spells – maybe they can fit level 20 nicely. I tend to look at base-class level 20 as a container where all mortal capabilities should fit somewhere.

 

[Kerrick]

First, I'd like to take a moment to bring down the temperature of this discourse. I am actually trying to be helpful, I'm just an acerbic ass.

Fair enough. That's why I took a couple days to reply - I was having a bad week, and I didn't want to bring it here too.

I do. I also advocate against high-level spells since the vast majority are "I win!" buttons that a player (or villain) can smash repeatedly. At high levels, not getting instantly removed is a larger concern; I'm not happy about that but that's one of the realities of high level play.

Well yeah... but that's easy to fix - simply alter/remove the spells.

For the purposes of our discussion, the level of divinely powerful creatures, it matters a lot. Zeppo the Clown is a level 1 Expert that stumbles across the Genie of Divinity and is instantly granted 12 Divine Ranks, becoming Zeppo, the God of Clowns. He's still a level 1 Expert. Does this mean that all level 1 Experts are gods? No.
Saying that characters achieve godhead at level 20 just because a couple level 20 adventurers lucked their way into divinity is equally inaccurate.

Of course it's inaccurate. That's not what I was implying, in case I was unclear; I'm saying that just because someone who is a divine being (however many ranks he has) has 20 levels in a class makes little difference - he's still a divine being. I do not, however, believe that just achieving 20th level in a class entitles you to gain divine ranks.

No. Nowhere in your text does it tell me that there is a system where I only bypass part of DR, and that X is the formula for how much I bypass. There is an example that suddenly and randomly mentions it, without explaining it I'll add, but that is all.

Eh. I fixed it, so it's a moot point now.

See, now you're just repeating that I'm wrong, even when I'm not. I saw that note (though I missed the Fractional Progressions, altering the math slightly).
Full Bab = 20 + 10 (1/2 * 20) = 30
3/4 BAB = 20.25 (3/4 * 27) + 6.5 (1/2 * 13) = 26.75 = 26
1/2 BAB = 20 (1/2 * 40) = 20

If anyone is wrong, it's your Legendary class tables, since 3/4 BAB does not reach +27 by 40th level.

Oh, I see what I did - I forgot that 21st level gives +0 EAB. So yes, the tables are incorrect. I'll have to look at this in more detail.

That was nonsi, not me.

Oops, sorry. I couldn't find the quote.

And no one ever catches up, the gaps just gets smaller for classes / characters with a BAB progression better than 1/2.

I'll have to look at my notes again to see if/where I went wrong.

Seriously? The ELH fixed the issue with one sentence. Paraphrased: Thou Shalt Not Gain Iterative Attacks After Character Level 20.
Did you have to plan your pre-20 progression? Sure. Did this complicate epic level character creation? Sure. Did it solve the problem you've twice refused to look at solving? You betta believe it.

Two cons versus a pro /= good game design. Have you ever tried to create an epic character from scratch? It sucks. That's the main reason I was trying to come up with a new progression - to eliminate those two cons. When I finish hashing out the ranger and the druid, I'll go back to the legendary rules and start cleaning that up too.

(What's truly unacceptable, BTW, is the sheer amount of mistakes, inconsistencies, and outright bad writing on my site. Some of it I can chalk up to changing rules in mid-stride (while I was still working on stuff), and some to the fact that you shouldn't edit your own work, but still - gah. I'm really glad I came up with the idea of doing a HTML compilation, so I can go through and fix all that crap.)