Project Phoenix fighter discussion (Forked from: Feat Points)

[ValhallaGH]

>> Penetrating Shot
Representing (o rat least aspiring to represent) the pinnacle of bowmanship, you’d probably take Imp. Precise Shot ASAP. This would automatically make this one a hindering option rather than a beneficial one.

The real question is "why does a natural 20 on the attack roll against the second target not threaten a critical hit?" I'd understand if you only made one attack roll and compared it to both characters, but you make two separate rolls.
Just because you shot through one guy doesn't mean you can't hit the second guy in the heart.

>> Power Shot
Why not make the damage count as your Bull Rush score and be done with?
Furthermore, it should be applicable only with composite bows (I’ll leave the “why” part to you).

Part 1: agree, excepting the following. Simple and fast.
Part 2: The real question is "why does an ability that literally knock targets off their feet push them around instead?" Bull Rush simply moves the target 5 feet (or more); it doesn't knock people down without special abilities.
Change it to a Trip, and change the flavor text from "teh powarz" to "a precisely placed shot knocks your foes to the ground, leaving them at a considerable disadvantage." The precision better fits the flavor of the class, and people stop trying to say that you can't make someone stumble because you shot them with a crossbow or threw a dagger at them.

Sniper Shot:
If the ranger has sneak attack or a similar ability, he can also add this damage if it applies.

Why are you telling me that I can use one of my abilities if it applies? Do your games not allow sneak attack to be rolled on a critical hit, if the conditions for SA exist?
Not a bad Standard action, though. Bonus, leaving it as a Class Feature means that other classes can't take it. Which helps secure your "Ranger = super archer" motif.

Favored Terrain: When do I gain the benefits of the Advanced Abilities?
Why does the desert ability make it more impossible to track than a 100-year blizzard does?

Hunter's Lore: Meh. Against some creatures this is awesome, but against most it won't be of any use (too many HD). Example: Gray Render zombie has 20 HD at CR 6 (DC 30). The level 6 ranger's knowledge (religion) maxes at +16 (9 ranks assuming class skill, +4 Int, Skill Focus) for a 35% chance of success and a 15% chance of getting a +2, with most having something like a +2 to +8 bonus and no chance of success.

Hunter's Strike: It's like Sudden Strike, except even more limited. That sucks. Good flavor, though.

Aspect of the Beast: Lots of flavor, limited utility, though some of the per diems are pretty good.

Bow Mastery:
Hindering Shot is okay, though very weak (1/2 damage, fewer attacks, and reduced speed is a heck of a price for -5 ft speed per hit for 1 round). Still, I can see it being really useful in the occasional, rare, situation.
The other three are discussed earlier.


Overall, I'm very 'meh' about this ranger. He gave up a lot of options (bonus feats, TWF) and a couple powerful abilities (Evasion) for a few weak but flavorful abilities, the Horizon Master's Favored Terrain, and a couple good Bow Masteries (and at the progression rate, all Ranger 20 will have all four, making them nearly identical).

 

[nonsi256]

Hey Kerrik,

I agree with everything ValhallaGH said.

- Evasion – put it back ASAP.
- Add Flawless Stride (Woodland Stride should come earlier than it is now).
- Camouflage & HiPS should come a lot earlier to count (see the Scout)
- Free Movement should be added in the higher levels somewhere
- You need a faster accumulation of favored terrains. At current there are not enough of them to enjoy this benefit more often than not (stat with 2 and adjust from there).
- How about Close Combat Archery (no AoOs in melee from using a bow) at some point? This is not incredibly fantastic, given bows are prone to sunder, but with full BAB its not too likely to happen very often.
- Consider changing Hunter's Strike to Skirmish, or ranged Sneak Attack with increased range (or something along that line).

And don’t be deterred by having multiple features per level – even at the higher levels. Martial classes need all the love they can get.

 

[Kerrick]

The question you should answer (mainly to yourself – it’s your class after all) is what kind of training does such a character have over a 20th level Rogue with maximized Hide & Move Silently, that also happened to have taken an impressive array of feats (Cunning Evasion, Fade into Violence, Skill Focus: Hide etc) and skill tricks (Shrouded Dance etc) associated with hiding (including some homemade ones).

I don't know what any of those things are, except for SF. I mean, yeah - HiPS is pretty impressive, but it just lets you attempt a Hide check while being observed. I think that a ranger of that level with minimal ranks in Hide (or Stealth, in my case) is a corner case at best, but that's just me.

To minimize changes, I’d suggest you adopt my first option. Gaining automatic ranks (not necessarily maximized) in 2 skills would not make your Ranger anywhere near broken (unlike bonuses, which might stack with ranks to alarming proportions),

I've got an idea about that, but that's for another topic.

and if you also limit both features to favored terrain, it would make a lot of sense (the combined practice of skills & terrain knowledge that gives an edge no one else can acquire) and have an added value flavor-wise.

That could work.

Your Ranger already has quite a few distinct features that make it a lot better than the core class:
- Favored terrain
- Hunter's lore
- Hunter’s strike
- Aspect of the Beast
That’s more than enough to make it unique. You don’t need to hog feats for that.

Unique, yes, but those are all minor bonuses (with the exception of Hunter's Strike). I want rangers to be THE premier archers. You can take a fighter and be a good archer, but if you want to be the best, you go ranger.

My original version (which you can see here) had bonus archery feats. It's boring. Weren't you the one who said bonus feats aren't good class features?

Also, as far as Favored Terrain goes, I’d suggest the bonuses to increase for all previous terrains.
I’d also suggest this approach as far as Favored Enemy goes (look for some debates over Ranger remakes and you'll see I'm not alone on this one).

Yeah. I'm going to do this for FE, though I didn't state it... doing it for FT also is a good idea.

1. 10ft is nothing.

You're hitting them both with one shot. It's fairly easy with a crossbow, sure - they've got the velocity to do it, but most bows don't.

2. If you have Imp. Precise Shot, you can simply make that iterative attack at negligible penalties and gain the benefits of crits, Hunter’s strike and whatnot.

Yeah, good point. Penetrating Strike was originally a feat that I decided would make a good ranger ability, but I'm not sure how to buff it up. I think it's best used in circumstances were you can get a clear shot at one enemy, but there's another standing behind him. Even then, though, it's more of a trick shot than anything truly useful.

Btw, it seems you forgot to mention if your Ranger uses the core Ranger’s spells & spell progression, or if there are any changes. Flavor-wise, I think the core progression would fit your class like a glove, making the Ranger's spells a nice collection of extra tricks rather than a primary characteristic.

Oh yeah - those are unchanged. I've got a bunch of new ranger spells, too.

You know what, one step after another, you're slowly making the Ranger into a jutifyable class (something I've long since given up hope for).

Heh, thanks. The ranger is the second-most-revised class, after the sorcerer.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Unique, yes, but those are all minor bonuses (with the exception of Hunter's Strike).

No, Hunter's Strike is minor too. Don't get confused, it is weak (unless you've radically altered monster HP).

You're hitting them both with one shot. It's fairly easy with a crossbow, sure - they've got the velocity to do it, but most bows don't.

Yeah, good point. Penetrating Strike was originally a feat that I decided would make a good ranger ability, but I'm not sure how to buff it up. I think it's best used in circumstances were you can get a clear shot at one enemy, but there's another standing behind him. Even then, though, it's more of a trick shot than anything truly useful.

And that's a major design flaw. Bow Mastery is supposed to be a primary class feature, and Penetrating Shot is pretty high level, it shouldn't be weaker than Cleave.

Me, I'd design it to be Great Cleave, with a bow.
"Penetrating Shot: If you drop a target with one of your shots, draw a straight line from your character through the target dropped. The first enemy along or adjacent to the line, passed the target, is now targeted by the same attack; make another attack at the same bonuses, and if it hits the target takes all applicable damage. There is no limit to the number of penetrating shots you can make in around but all targets but be in or along the lines from the ranger to the first target."

Good luck.

 

[Kerrick]

No, Hunter's Strike is minor too. Don't get confused, it is weak (unless you've radically altered monster HP).

It's moderate. It doesn't compare to sneak attack, but it's better than just base damage.

And that's a major design flaw. Bow Mastery is supposed to be a primary class feature, and Penetrating Shot is pretty high level, it shouldn't be weaker than Cleave.

I think I'll change that to "you can bypass up to 5 points of DR with a bow". That makes it much more useful. [Note: I use a different DR system than 3.5; each plus of a weapon bypasses 5 points of DR, and a weapon with a high enough enchantment can bypass material or alignment DR as well.]

Me, I'd design it to be Great Cleave, with a bow.
"Penetrating Shot: If you drop a target with one of your shots, draw a straight line from your character through the target dropped. The first enemy along or adjacent to the line, passed the target, is now targeted by the same attack; make another attack at the same bonuses, and if it hits the target takes all applicable damage. There is no limit to the number of penetrating shots you can make in around but all targets but be in or along the lines from the ranger to the first target."

Interesting idea, but I'm trying to get away from the grid.

I was thinking about this at work today (short day), and thought about just giving the ranger bonuses at each level - Weapon Spec, increased crit multiplier, bonus to trick shots/special shots (like Power Shot), etc., and make all the abilities I have into feats. I can then assign each ability to a level and have done with it. The problem with this approach is that a bunch of bonuses, while useful, are a) boring and b) not very representative of a primary ability. I'm kind of torn on this one. I want rangers to be able to do "cool stuff" with a bow and be better at it than anyone else, and I can't seem to be able to do both.

 

[nonsi256]

Ok, allow me to suggest a much more effective, powerful and thematically sound version of your Ranger.


Notice the table formatting that makes it a lot easier to track the progression of the various features (who said that only the Monk is privileged to have a non-standard table ).

​

 

[Kerrick]

Sorry guys - apparently a couple folks slipped in posts while I wasn't looking.

The real question is "why does a natural 20 on the attack roll against the second target not threaten a critical hit?" I'd understand if you only made one attack roll and compared it to both characters, but you make two separate rolls.

Just because you shot through one guy doesn't mean you can't hit the second guy in the heart.

Good question.

Part 2: The real question is "why does an ability that literally knock targets off their feet push them around instead?" Bull Rush simply moves the target 5 feet (or more); it doesn't knock people down without special abilities.
Change it to a Trip, and change the flavor text from "teh powarz" to "a precisely placed shot knocks your foes to the ground, leaving them at a considerable disadvantage." The precision better fits the flavor of the class, and people stop trying to say that you can't make someone stumble because you shot them with a crossbow or threw a dagger at them.

I like that.

Why are you telling me that I can use one of my abilities if it applies? Do your games not allow sneak attack to be rolled on a critical hit, if the conditions for SA exist?
Not a bad Standard action, though. Bonus, leaving it as a Class Feature means that other classes can't take it. Which helps secure your "Ranger = super archer" motif.

Standard boilerplate. I'll remove it.

Favored Terrain: When do I gain the benefits of the Advanced Abilities?

As I said in my post, I don't know - I'm not sure whether to add them as epic abilities (probably not, since most groups don't go epic), or add a high-level feat to gain them, or simply let the ranger choose the terrain a second time to gain them. Since they're rather powerful, I'm leaning toward the feat route.

Why does the desert ability make it more impossible to track than a 100-year blizzard does?

More impossible? That's like saying someone's more dead, or more pregnant. But seriously, I'm not sure what you mean here - I don't have any blizzard abilities. That's a good idea for the Hills/Mountains FT though.

Hunter's Lore: Meh. Against some creatures this is awesome, but against most it won't be of any use (too many HD).

Yeah, I figured that myself. I'm going to change it to ECL (CR for those of you who still use the standard system).

Hunter's Strike: It's like Sudden Strike, except even more limited. That sucks. Good flavor, though.

Sudden Strike? ??? I was aiming for something that typefies a guerilla fighter without overshadowing the rogue.

Aspect of the Beast: Lots of flavor, limited utility, though some of the per diems are pretty good.

Any suggestions? I know these are a bit weak, though I'd intended for them to be minor powers to start with.

Bow Mastery:
Hindering Shot is okay, though very weak (1/2 damage, fewer attacks, and reduced speed is a heck of a price for -5 ft speed per hit for 1 round). Still, I can see it being really useful in the occasional, rare, situation.

The half-damage thing was because you're aiming for the legs instead of vital areas; I can restore the # attacks to full, but I was worried about the ranger immediately slowing something down to 1/4 speed in one round. Then again, maybe it's not a bad thing.

Overall, I'm very 'meh' about this ranger. He gave up a lot of options (bonus feats, TWF) and a couple powerful abilities (Evasion) for a few weak but flavorful abilities, the Horizon Master's Favored Terrain, and a couple good Bow Masteries (and at the progression rate, all Ranger 20 will have all four, making them nearly identical).

I'm looking for more Bow Mastery abilities, actually. The loss of TWF is deliberate, for reasons stated earlier, and I'm trying to get away from adding a bunch of bonus feats.

- Evasion – put it back ASAP.

Where? It doesn't fit with any of their other abilities.

- Add Flawless Stride (Woodland Stride should come earlier than it is now).

What's Flawless Stride?

- Camouflage & HiPS should come a lot earlier to count (see the Scout)

I don't own any non-core books. If you're going to refer to non-core material, at least tell me what it is or what it does.

- Free Movement should be added in the higher levels somewhere

That's what woodland stride is. Permanent freedom of movement is far too powerful to add as a class ability.

- You need a faster accumulation of favored terrains. At current there are not enough of them to enjoy this benefit more often than not (stat with 2 and adjust from there).

Four isn't enough? Considering the ranger has to spend a month in the terrain, that's hard enough, don't you think?

- How about Close Combat Archery (no AoOs in melee from using a bow) at some point? This is not incredibly fantastic, given bows are prone to sunder, but with full BAB its not too likely to happen very often.

Combat Archery (which does the same thing) is an epic feat. I made it into a high-level one that requires BAB +16. I considered giving it to the ranger as a bonus feat, though.

- Consider changing Hunter's Strike to Skirmish, or ranged Sneak Attack with increased range (or something along that line).

How about allowing the ranger to use any of his other feats/abilities with it, like Hindering Shot, Sniper Shot, etc.?

Re: the suggested changes:

You don’t need to specify spells in the table.

I only did it here to let everyone know they're still in.

You don’t need unique bow abilities given you have FE and Hunter’s Strike on your side, making the Fighter unable to compete range-wise. This also makes Hunter’s Lore redundant.

I guess Hunter's Lore is kind of redundant - I'll ditch it.

I’m quite fine with a near-epic ranger having familiarity with all terrains. To avoid ridiculous bonuses, you could decide that with each new terran all previous terrains gain a +1 increase to the skill bonuses rather than +2.

That's great if you don't plan to go into epic territory, but I designed the system to scale up to L40. I like the +1 bonus idea, though.


I'll go over this thing again, map out the ability trees, and see what I can come up with.

 

[Kerrick]

Just a quick post. I did some reorganization, and here's what I've got now.

1st: Favored terrain, 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy
2nd: Hunter's strike, Endurance, fast movement
3rd: Bow mastery I
4th: Animal companion, aspect of the beast
5th: One with nature, 2nd FE
6th: 2nd favored terrain, HS +2d6
7th: Bow mastery II
8th: Swift tracker
9th: Aspect of the beast
10th: 3rd FE
11th: 3rd favored terrain, camouflage, Bow mastery III
12th:
13th: Aspect of the beast
14th: Hide in plain sight, HS +4d6
15th: Bow mastery IV, 4th FE
16th: 4th favored terrain
17th: Chameleon
18th: HS +5d6
19th: Bow mastery V, Aspect of the beast
20th: 5th FE

As you can see, Bow Mastery now has five tiers; I'm leaning toward simply letting the player choose any bow feat for which he qualifies - it's easier that way. One with nature was already a PP druid ability; I don't know how I missed giving it to the ranger as well. Chameleon was an idea I came up with when I was trying to think of a high-level stealth ability; I think it fits very well here. And yes, they still have spells - I just removed the entry from the list.

I'm not sure how I managed to end up with a dead level at 12th, since I had five different ability trees. I'll have to rearrange something to cover it, and since I have three abilities at 11th, it will likely be one of those.


One With Nature (Ex): A ranger can move through any sort of undergrowth or difficult terrain (natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, soft sand, scree, etc.) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him, however.

If he is in his favored terrain, he also leaves no trail (making him impossible to track). He can choose to leave a trail if he wishes.

Chameleon (Ex): The ranger is so attuned to the environment around him that if he stands still for a full round and focuses on being hidden, he effectively becomes invisible. This ability only works if he is in one of his favored terrains, and the effect is broken if he moves or speaks. He can otherwise remain this way for as long as he desires; spells like see invisibility will not reveal him, since he isn't actually invisible, but true seeing will show his location.

 

[ValhallaGH]

More impossible? That's like saying someone's more dead, or more pregnant. But seriously, I'm not sure what you mean here - I don't have any blizzard abilities. That's a good idea for the Hills/Mountains FT though.

There's a difference between practically impossible (+40 or more to the DC, as the current Track rules treat a major blizzard) and actually impossible. It's the difference between Fire Resistance 90 and Immunity Fire; one's theoretically defeatable, the other is completely binary.
One of the few places I agree with Mr. Sean Reynolds is that 3.x D&D has way too many binary absolutes, and that these absolutes interact very oddly with the game world (Fire Giants that hide in lava pools to get surprise on the party: that's pretty danged strange).

Sudden Strike? ??? I was aiming for something that typefies a guerilla fighter without overshadowing the rogue.

Which First Strike does. It was introduced with the Ninja base class in one of the Complete books (Adventurer, I think); I'm confusing it with a series of feats with a similar ability and a different name. The gist is that it works like Sneak Attack but only on Flat-Footed targets; so only during a surprise round, on a successfully feinted target, or against a target that can't perceive you. You can find a copy here; simply scroll down to the First Strike entry. It typifies the "guerrilla ambush" while still being useful in combat, if the player(s) can make it relevant.

If you want to turn the Ranger into a super-archer, you may want to get a look at the Iron Heroes class ARCHER. That is arguably the finest ranged combat class to ever enter a d20 system, and certainly the most interesting and powerful I've ever seen. A highly modified version of the Archer can be found here.


Re: Evasion.
It may not fit with some of the other abilities but it is a mechanically solid choice for the (low) hp of the class. Which is exactly the same reason the Rogue gets it.
You can't rely, as a designer, upon DMs providing cover for the class to gain an equivalent benefit from. So you design each class to be fun and about as powerful as the others, so that players enjoy the game and fun is had.
Rangers either need Evasion or they need to be on a d10 hit die. As a primary combatant, they need one or the other to survive well enough to do their job.


Good Luck.

 

[nonsi256]

>> As I said in my post, I don't know - I'm not sure whether to add
>> them as epic abilities (probably not, since most groups don't go
>> epic), or add a high-level feat to gain them, or simply let the
>> ranger choose the terrain a second time to gain them. Since they're
>> rather powerful, I'm leaning toward the feat route.
1. We’ll get to the epic issue in a moment.
2. 4 terrains in 20 levels and you want to make a player waste one?! Bad mojo, dude.
3. Requiring feats would just be shoehorning.
I’d suggest you choose one of two options:
- Decide upon a level from which Advanced Abilities are acceptable and not overpowered.
- Dictate that they’re received automatically after so many levels with a favored terrain.


>> Sudden Strike? ??? I was aiming for something that typifies
>> a guerilla fighter without overshadowing the rogue.
You’re not thinking BIG enough (does the name “Legolas” ring a bell?)


>> Any suggestions? I know these are a bit weak, though I'd intended
>> for them to be minor powers to start with.
Not every feature has to be awesomely powerful to be useful, interesting or thematically sound.


>> Where? It doesn't fit with any of their other abilities.
1. The Ranger embodies mobility & agility.
2. A lot of high-level monsters have tons of battlefield control (a lot of which is direct damage).
||
\/
Evasion is both thematically sound and mechanically important.


>> What's Flawless Stride?
Kind’a like Woodland Stride, but everywhere.
And now that 3e material is no longer distributed by WotC, there are 2 words you might want to get familiar with: mtorrent & rapidshare (I’ll leave the rest to you).


>> I don't own any non-core books. If you're going to refer to non-core
>> material, at least tell me what it is or what it does.
Complete Adventurer.


>> That's what woodland stride is. Permanent freedom of movement is
>> far too powerful to add as a class ability.
Saying that makes it clear that you just don’t grasp the huge gap (on so many levels) between martial classes and full spellcasters (defense, offence, action-economy, mobility, options, battlfield control, foresight and whatnot).
This just makes it a teeny weenie bit harder for a magic user to hogtie-rape you in broad dalight at those levels.


>> Four isn't enough? Considering the ranger has to spend a month in
>> the terrain, that's hard enough, don't you think?
Ok, this seems like an appropriate time to illuminate things in the proper light.
Skill-wise & combat-wise, level 6 describes everything that’s humanly possible by the best of the best (a websight called “The Alexandrian” presents a wonderful analysis to back up this claim) and that probably in the entire human history there weren’t even 10 6th level individuals (De-Vinci, perhaps the greatest Ninja ever, king Leonidas maybe...).
This means that 7th level is already outside of the known territories of the mortal realm.
Now consider this: they never rewrote a 3.5 version of the epic level handbook. Ever wondered why?
I’ll tell you my guess:
1. 3e’s epic level rules don’t work. Everything in there is either sub-epic appropriate, reduced to nothing more than ZOMGWTF stat pumping or just too damn blurry to really figure out (mostly epic-level spells).
2. 3e’s epic level rules don’t really bring anything new to the gaming table. They all end up with the gage-meters passing the red zone and spinning erratically out of control.
3. There’s enough potential to take your campaign wherever you wish it to go without epic-level rules.
4. Everything has a point at which it has gone as far as it can go – so should be the case for base classes. Level 20 is and should be the point where you squeezed just about everything you could possibly squeeze out of a particular class and that it’s time to move on. I mean, a level-20 base class should be no less than f#cking awesome. And don’t forget that even with all the modifications I’ve suggested in the attached doc (plus the core Ranger’s spellcasting on top of that - with everything you might find in any official game spplement), the Ranger would still trail way behind full casters.
5. Given the above, according to your rules, only one human in 500 years could have the theoretical potential of getting exceptionally familiar with 2 terrains. With mine, there might be a freak of nature at some point of human evolution that would be able to get exceptionally familiar with 3, but 2 are definitely humanly possible every now and then.


>> Combat Archery (which does the same thing) is an epic feat.
Ditto.

>> I made it into a high-level one that requires BAB +16.
1. Too far off to count.
2. Shoehorning. Plus, you’re not gonna be takin it by level 16, simply because you’re not gonna have a feat to spend (unless you're a Fighter ).

>> I considered giving it to the ranger as a bonus feat, though.
Then make it a feature and you’ll have something the Ranger can do that no one else can.


>> How about allowing the ranger to use any of his other feats/abilities
>> with it, like Hindering Shot, Sniper Shot, etc.?
That too.



>> That's great if you don't plan to go into epic territory, but I designed
>> the system to scale up to L40. I like the +1 bonus idea, though.
There’s no advantage in spreading 20 levels over 40 (not one that I could figure anyway).



Btw, Chameleon is nice. Not great, that’s for sure, but nice.