Promises, promises...what WotC said, and actually did, with 4E

[Arnwyn]

Wait, you don't still kill things and take their stuff?

Huh?

 

[amethal]

Wait, you don't still kill things and take their stuff?

Well, by some accounts you kill things, their stuff vanishes, some level-appropriate other stuff appears and you take that instead.

Not sure if this is true, but even if the game is now "kill things and take stuff" it doesn't seem that big a change to me.

 

[Agamon]

The idea they were trying to sell is that 4E is the proud successor to 3.5 and all previous editions, that the game, despite all the changes is still D&D.

Some people say that they succeeded, some do not.

So they failed to please all of the people all of the time? If it was an idea they were selling, then not all the people will be buying it, no matter what it is. That's trying to objectively say 'fail' to something that's subjective.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

The thing about crunch-before-flavor is... you can change the flavor.

Whether you think the "flavor" of a particular monster is appropriate or silly is pretty much the definition of an opinion, anyway, so yeah, it's not possible to prove that objectively one version has better flavor than another. Can the game "fail" in terms of not appealing to a particular person? Absolutely.

 

[TerraDave]

Boy, leave it to the internets to take things in the wrong spirit.

This is just to look back on the last year, at all the things we were told--often with great confidence--and how they really turned out.

So, anyone remember the brief resurection of the cavelier?

(Quest cards: are these in the DMG at all? I guess they where just a "suggestion" here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071121 but where pretty prominent at the time)

 

[Scribble]

I have to ask if I was right- Was your title in refefrence to that song?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Boy, leave it to the internets to take things in the wrong spirit.

This is just to look back on the last year, at all the things we were told--often with great confidence--and how they really turned out.

So, anyone remember the brief resurection of the cavelier?

(Quest cards: are these in the DMG at all? I guess they where just a "suggestion" here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071121 but where pretty prominent at the time)

Speaking of Cavalier, I remember that the initial outline for Paragon Path was different, and suited for multiple classes instead of just one. Interesting how this changed. I suspect they cut a lot of Paragon Path and Epic Destiny (look at the 3.5 version of Epic Destinies) for space (or for the sinister purpose of selling them later, or both)

 

[pemerton]

Quest cards: are these in the DMG at all?

As I already posted, they're in a sidebar in the DMG, I think in the Rewards chapter.

 

[Corjay]

Race does matter after 1st level. It's a matter of perspective. One person believes that a skill that is immediately available and which never stops helping with the same bonus is helpful at all levels, while another believes that unless the ability improves through levels that its not helping in all levels.

You all already know this, but I'll spell it out to highlight the point...

Here is the former (static use) view upheld:

Spoiler

Brokenness issues aside, Dragonborn have History and Intimidate racial bonuses and Dragonborn Fury, Draconic Heritage, Dragon Breath racial abilities and Enlarged Dragon Breath, Dragonborn Frenzy, and Dragonborn Sense racial feats which help at all levels.

Dwarves have Dungeoneering and Endurance racial bonuses and Cast-Iron Stomach, Dwarven Resilience, Dwarven Weapon Proficiency, and Stand Your Ground racial abilities and Dodge Giants and Dwarven Weapon Training feats which help at all levels.

Eladrin have Arcana and History racial bonus and Eladrin Education, Eladrin Weapon Proficiency, Eladrin Will, Fey Origin, Trance, and Fey Step racial abilities and the Eladrin Soldier racial feat which help at all levels.

Elves have Nature and Perception racial bonuses and Elven Weapon Proficiency, Fey Origin, Group Awareness, Wild Step, and Elven Accuracy racial abilities and Elven Precision and Light Step racial feats which help at all levels.

Half-Elves have Diplomacy and Insight racial bonuses and Dilettante, Dual Heritage, and Group Diplomacy racial abilities and the Group Insight racial feat which help at all levels.

Halflings have Acrobatics and Thievery racial bonuses and Bold, Nimble Reaction, and Second Chance racial abilities and Halfling Agility and Lost in the Crowd racial feats which help at all levels.

Humans have bonus At-Will Power, Feat, and Skills and a racial bonus to defenses and Action Surge and Human Perseverance racial feats which help at all levels which help at all levels.

Tieflings have Bluff and Stealth racial bonuses and Bloodhunt, Fire Resistance, and Infernal Wrath power racial abilities and Ferocious Rebuke and Hellfire Blood racial feats which help at all levels.

Here is the latter (enhanceable) view upheld:

Spoiler

Besides the following, the former racial feats aren't all gained at once, but you get one at 1st (except Humans, who get 2) and gain the rest every second level after first (except Eladrin who receive on 1 racial feat). So there is continuing progression.

Dragonborn get Empowered Dragon Breath as a paragon Feat.

Dwarves get Dwarven Durability as a paragon feat.

Eladrin get Feywild Protection as a paragon feat.

Elf gets Running shot as a paragon feat.

Halflings get Underfoot as a paragon feat.

Humans get Action Recovery as a paragon feat.

Tieflings get Fiery Rebuke paragon feat.

Lots of these abilities and feats enhance or are enhanced by comboing with other class-specific leveling benefits such as Burning Blizzard adding damage to acid or cold Dragon Breath. So whatever your view, there are more than just a couple of abilities per race that help more than just the 1st level for that race.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Well, by some accounts you kill things, their stuff vanishes, some level-appropriate other stuff appears and you take that instead.

Not sure if this is true, but even if the game is now "kill things and take stuff" it doesn't seem that big a change to me.

That's bad DM'ing, not bad rules.

And this happened way before 4th edition was even planned.

As evidence, let me point you out to the first issues of the Goblins webcomic, where one of the goblins complains about the tribe not being able to use the treasure they are guarding against adventurers

http://www.goblinscomic.com/d/20050703.html
http://www.goblinscomic.com/d/20050704.html

These are from July 2005, just in case you were wondering.