Pronouns

[Particle_Man]

From: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~cjacobso/gender.html

"In 1879, for example, a move to admit female physicians to the all-male Massachusetts Medical society was effectively blocked on the grounds that the society's by-laws describing membership used the pronoun he."

Also: "It's enough to drive anyone out of their senses" (George Bernard Shaw).

And: "Gender-neutral language has gained support from most major textbook publishers, and from professional and academic groups such as the American Psychological Association and the Associated Press. Newspapers like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal avoid such language. Many law journals, psychology journals, and literature journals do not print articles or papers that use gender-inclusive language. If you anticipate working within any of these contexts, you will need to be able to express yourself according to their guidelines, and if you wish to write or speak convincingly to people who are influenced by the conventions of these contexts, you need to be conscious of their expectations."

I'd say that the genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

 

[Pielorinho]

No, no, everyone knows that "y'all" is singular and "all y'all" is plural.

I didn't have to check your location field to know that you don't live in the South . i've lived here for nearly all my life, and I have never heard a Southerner use "y'all" as a singular (although the redundant "all y'all" does sometimes occur; I think "all" acts as an intensifier in this case).

Daniel

 

[woodelf]

I didn't have to check your location field to know that you don't live in the South . i've lived here for nearly all my life, and I have never heard a Southerner use "y'all" as a singular (although the redundant "all y'all" does sometimes occur; I think "all" acts as an intensifier in this case).

Daniel

Nope, but my cousins live a few miles down the road from you, relatively speaking (Research Triangle area). And, yes, that was sarcasm on my part.

In all seriousness, I was under the impression that while "y'all" was plural, it wasn't necessarily inclusive, while "all y'all" is necessarily inclusive. IOW, "Y'all come eat now" is more like "you are all invited in for dinner, but it's ok if only some of you come in" while "All y'all come eat now" is closer to "every single one of you is, individually, invited in for dinner, and i'm expecting everyone to come in". So, not merely emphasis, but actually a different meaning--making it clear that none of "y'all" is excluded. But maybe that's what you meant?

 

[DM-Rocco]

For those that think that "he" does not exclude women, and is perfectly gender neutral, good for you! I am glad to see you standing up for linguistic tradition. That's mighty white of you. I mean, too many times we have been gypped out of our linguistic heritage and I think it is time to roll out the old paddywagon and round up these pc troublemakers! You have exposed the chinks in their arguments masterfully, sirs, and shown the wopping big fallacies involved. We must maintain the purity of our grammar, keeping it spic-and-span.

You should talk, what with your racist statements. By saying ,"white and chinks and spic-and-span," you are offending Caucasians, Chinese, Hispanics and Spaniards. Try dumping your racist views and maybe other will look to gender equatily.

 

[DM-Rocco]

You should talk, what with your racist statements. By saying ,"white and chinks and spic-and-span," you are offending Caucasians, Chinese, Hispanics and Spaniards. Try dumping your racist views and maybe other will look to gender equatily.

Oh God, I guess I better say I am joking before I get hit upside the head cause someone is taking me seriously.

 

[DonTadow]

I watch a lot of movies that don't have a single black person in it, doesnt mean the movie isn't for me to watch. read a lot of books the same way. It's a waiste of pages and ink to have to imply both genders or to go out of the way to include the gender. It also makes for some confusing reading (and writing) at times. I think its kinda silly to throw in some "shes " and they say "hey look you can read it now that it includes you".

 

[babomb]

In all seriousness, I was under the impression that while "y'all" was plural, it wasn't necessarily inclusive, while "all y'all" is necessarily inclusive. IOW, "Y'all come eat now" is more like "you are all invited in for dinner, but it's ok if only some of you come in" while "All y'all come eat now" is closer to "every single one of you is, individually, invited in for dinner, and i'm expecting everyone to come in". So, not merely emphasis, but actually a different meaning--making it clear that none of "y'all" is excluded. But maybe that's what you meant?

I suppose "all y'all" does carry some extra connotation of inclusiveness, but I don't think it's used purely (or primarily) for that purpose.

"All y'all" (at least, here in New Orleans) emphasizes the size of the group: sort of a "pluplural". So to one person, I say "You come eat now."; if I'm talking to a small group, such as my gaming group, "Y'all come eat now"; to a large group, like everyone at GenCon, "All y'all come eat now." (I probably wouldn't use the "now" in any of those cases, but one goes to war with the army one has.)

Incidentally, wikipedia says sometimes "y'all" is used as to mean only two and "all y'all" to mean plural (more than two). I have never heard anyone use it this way. Replace "only two" with "a small number", however, and it's correct.

 

[Feathercircle]

No, no, everyone knows that "y'all" is singular and "all y'all" is plural.

Y'all gather 'round from far and near,
Both city folk and rural,
And listen while I tell you this:
The pronoun y'all is plural.

If I should utter, "Y'all come down,
Or we-all shall be lonely,"
I mean at least a couple folks,
And not one person only.

If I should say to Hiram Jones,
"I think that y'all are lazy,"
Or "Will y'all let me use y'all's knife?"
He'd think that I was crazy.

Don't think I mean to criticize
Or that I'm full of gall,
But when we speak of one alone,
We all say "you," not "y'all."

-Anonymous poem

 

[davidschwartznz]

I watch a lot of movies that don't have a single black person in it, doesnt mean the movie isn't for me to watch.

Race is different because you inevitably have regional variations. The 50/50 gender split is universal.

As a writer, I prefer WotC's method of alternating gender by sections. However, I'm got no problem with a neutral he, if the product has a fair number of female characters, because that demonstrates that it's linguistic, and not sex, discrimination.

(I also like to see a topologically appropriate mix of races, but that's a whole other can of worms).

 

[Aaron L]

the use of "she" as a neuter pronoun was foisted on the English language for political reasons at a time when Whorfian thinking was well understood.

And the use of He as a neuter pronoun was foisted on the English language at a time when men were almost exclusively writing the rules for grammar. Somone finally reallized "hey, we're excluding half the population here, and might be ticking them off, too."