PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[Cloudgatherer]

Let's actually start with a 40th level wizard....(Edited slightly for clarity...)

Karni Nazanur

Male Elven Wiz40: CR 40; Medium (elven); HD 40d4+120; hp 240 (d4 = 3); Init +2 (+2 Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 22 (+10 bracers of armor, +2 Dex); Atk (BAB +10, Epic +10); SQ elven traits; AL LN; SV Fort +24, Ref +23, Will +28; Stat increases: +1 Int at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 24th, and 28th, +1 Con at 20th, 36th, 40th, +1 Wis at 32nd; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 30 (24), Wis 12, Cha 10. (35 point-buy)

Skills (369 points) and Feats (7 normal, 4 normal meta/item creation, 7 normal epic, 6 bonus wizard epic): Skill left for the reader;

Normal Feats (11): Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, and Quicken Spell… (etc)

Epic Feats (13): Improved Metamagic x3, Improved Spellcasting Capacity x9, Multispell

Possessions: bracers of armor +10, cloak of resistance +5, headband of intellect +6

Class Spells Prepared: 4/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/2/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1

I'm still working on getting all the specifics correct, but you get the idea.... This is not a (too) munched character except for the feat choices, which is done for illustration.

So the caster has up to an 18th level spell......

18th: empowered x10 horrid wilting (25d8 + 500% = 112.5 * 6 = 675, 337 half)
17th: empowered x8 meteor swarm (24d6 + 400% = 84 * 5 = 420, no save)

So if Mr. Wizard here burned his most powerful spell slots on the starting round and flung them at Mr. Fighter, Mr. Fighter would take 757 points of damage, assuming he made his fort save (highly likely).

If Mr. Fighter has a Con of 30, and 40 levels, that's 40d10+400 is (on average) is 620 hp. If he has a Con of 40, add 200 HP, so that's 820 hp.

That's probably the most abusive I can be (at least right now) with Empower. Do my numbers look good? Any suggestions on different configurations?

I'm not saying Empower is broken, but just trying to provide an *actual* 40th level wizard with a much better example of how Empower might be broken (if it is, which I haven't said either way, only looking into possible abuse).

Later!

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Well, heck, if you're going to give the Epic Wizard all of those feats spent on spell slots, you might as well give the fighter a few spent on Epic Toughness (at, what is it, +30 hp a pop?).

This is more fun than a cockfight, by the way.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I agree with the previous posters whose opinions were that Improved Metamagic was broken rather tha Empower Spell.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Do you really think anyone is going to take Epic Toughness? I created a Level 50 dwarven fighter and he ended up with roughly 750 hitpoints and could do some serious melee damage. The dwarf also took several Great Constitution feats, which helped his Con get up to 26 (admittedly, no magic items).

I think I may be inclined to agree with the notion of Improved Metamagic being the problem..... still looking into the matter....

 

[Crothian]

Do you really think anyone is going to take Epic Toughness?

Maybe if I can take it at first level. Maybe. At epic levels though, raising one's con with an item will get you as many if not more HPS. Epic Toughness gives one 20 hp. A +2 con bonus to a 20th level character yields 20 HPs. At level 40+ one is better of taking the Epic Constition feat (ot whatever it's called).

 

[Saeviomagy]

And then theres that nice feat "you miss".

You know - the one that says once around you can ignore a single batch of damage from your dodge target?

Or all the damage resistance abilities?

Or...

How about that single, permanent, epic-level spell which reflects all non-epic spells back at the caster?

Now are multi-metamagiced spells amazing?

 

[James McMurray]

And don't forget the relatively easy to get (for an epic character) Ring of Spell Turning. Its a shme that poor wizard just got nuked by his own super-powerful Horrid Wilting.

 

[apsuman]

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

I jsut did the math, well, not really, I am doing the math here as I type in rough draft format.

A maximized 9 times empowered horrid wilthing would do, let's see, 200 (for the max) + 25d8 *450%. That is a average of 706.25 hp. I forget, what was orcus' hp total? But a fort save for half. Lets see here...Base Save is DC 27 + 8 for the level, for a total of DC 35 which although it seems high is nothing for a 19th level spell.

And let's look at that vampire touch....
Maximized, it does 60, plus 10d6 *700%(14 empowers) so I get 60 + (3.5*10)*7 or 60 + 35*7 or 60 + 245 = 305 HP. Is that even enough to kill a balor?

Maybe I am missing what enhace does. But even still, I think I have now formulated an opinion:

You do not know how the empower feat actually works.

That would explain many of your posts, and why you could come to the conclusion that it is broken.


g!

 

[drowdude]

Wow... I cant belive this has started all over again in a new thread... *sigh*

If you dont like stacking metamagic feats then rule 0 it

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

I jsut did the math, well, not really, I am doing the math here as I type in rough draft format.

A maximized 9 times empowered horrid wilthing would do, let's see, 200 (for the max) + 25d8 *450%. That is a average of 706.25 hp. I forget, what was orcus' hp total? But a fort save for half. Lets see here...Base Save is DC 27 + 8 for the level, for a total of DC 35 which although it seems high is nothing for a 19th level spell.

And let's look at that vampire touch....
Maximized, it does 60, plus 10d6 *700%(14 empowers) so I get 60 + (3.5*10)*7 or 60 + 35*7 or 60 + 245 = 305 HP. Is that even enough to kill a balor?

Maybe I am missing what enhace does. But even still, I think I have now formulated an opinion:

You do not know how the empower feat actually works.

That would explain many of your posts, and why you could come to the conclusion that it is broken.


g!

A balor has 110 hp, so that is EASILY enough.

Orcus as 1150 hp, so it takes only one or two spells to kill him. Enhance Spell is a HUGE factor in it.