PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[James McMurray]

In that situation you will end up with whoever wins intitative winning the fight (assuming the casters are not allowed to prepare themselves ahead of time).

That is because if the empower caster wins init, he'll do enough damage to kill the other guy. If the non-empower wizard wins init, he'll use spells such as Otto's Irresistable Dance, Power Word, Stun, and Temporal Stasis to win the fight.

 

[Skaros]

Actually, more than specific encounters that provide only anecdotal information, wouldn't further analysis of how multiply empowered spells compare against other spells that would normally fill the slot they are taking up provide stronger general evidence one way or the other?

For instance, if you can show that multiply empowering spells enough times to take up a lvl X spell slot tends to create spells that are clearly more powerful than normal lvl X spells, and that the extra power is great enough that having to spend a feat on "empower spell" doesn't justify it, then you have a pretty good case that allowing multiple empowers is unbalanced.

That being said, I'm not the expert to do this

What do you think?

-Skaros

 

[James McMurray]

Sounds good. How about:

7xEmp. Horrid Wilting, level 22: 25d8 x 6.5 damage (average 731)
vs.
Quickened, Reach, Twinned, Silent Stilled Temporal Stasis: Free action ranged touch attack no components auto-remaoval unless they have SR

Advantage: non-empower

4 x emp Horrid Wilting, level 16: 25d8 x 3 damage (average 337)
Empowered, Quickened, Power Word Stun, Maximized: No save, stunned for 4 + 1d4 x .5 rounds if you have fewer than 150 hp.

Looks like a tie. With the Stun they have to have few HP, but if they do they are most likely dead.

3 x emp Vampiric Touch, level 9: 10d6 x 2.5 damage (average 87) pllus you gain those HP.
Non-metamagicked Meteor Swarm: 24d6 no save, plus bursts (average 84, you don't heal)

Looks like a tie, since the Vampiric Touch requires you to be in melee combat and succeed at a touch attack.

That's all I've got time for right now.

 

[Catalyst]

Tragically not. The most abusive is to add it to the most powerful assault spell in the game: Time Stop.

So an Empoweredx9 Time Stop (instead of Meteor Swarm or Empoweredx10 Horrid Wilting) effective multiplies (d4+1) by 5. On average rolls, you have 17.5 rounds of smackdown time.

In that amount of time, the wizard could kill the fighter using Magic Missiles alone (some of them would need to be Quickened, but not many).

That is the most abusive use of Empower Spell, and it demonstrates why Empower should not stack with itself very elegantly, no?

Actually, no. To Empower Time Stop 9x (assuming you have Improved Metamagic for sanity's sake) would require an 18th level spell slot, Improved Metamagic, and Improved Spell Capacity x9. That's 10 Epic Feats, to the exclusion of doing anything else, minimum character level 48.

A 48th level opponent would either have taken Spell Stowaway [Time Stop], or be able to afford an item that duplicates it quite easily, and it would be one of the most important defensive items to have (read: likely to have). One feat to defeat a single 48 level trick.

I agree with those who say spellcasters simply dominate at high levels completely aside from stacking metamagic feats, though I also think the fact that no one is using sub-epic examples is telling. For those using "only" 12th level Horrid Wiltings against equivalent level fighters: you are probably halving your potential damage using a Fort save spell. I would say stick to Meteor Swarm, but protection from fire is so cheaply available...

 

[James McMurray]

One more:

14 x empowered Horrid Wilting, level 36: 25d8 x 8 (average 900)
Quickened, Twinned, Maximized, Empowered, Enhanced x 4 Horrid Wilting: (55 x 8) + (55d8 x .5) + 25d8 damage (average 676 as a free action)

Still close to a tie, although thadvantage may be slightly weighted towards the stacked empower, depending on how highly you value a spell being a free action.

 

[James McMurray]

though I also think the fact that no one is using sub-epic examples is telling.

Actually, one of my examples was a non-epi spell, and in that instance, the effect was a tie.

Yes, Spellcasters can dominate at high levels, especially when given the resources of NPCs, since less money favors the spellcasters. However, every class will dominate the right situations, at every level.

 

[Metalsmith]

Why? Causing the enemy to reatreat is a victory, or have you forgotten?

By the way, you SEVERELY miscaculated on the chance of a critical. You added them together! On average, you must take the AVERAGE. One does NOT have an 80% chance to pull off a critical hit just because they have four attacks with a 20% chance. It would be mroe like a 35% chance, statistically speaking.

Naw! There's no reason to RETREAT.

He forgot you can take Power Critical and just VAPE him straight off. 100% chance to Critcal. Dead Mage, looks like EMPOWER SPELL didn't rule the world after all. Kinda disappointing I was expecting better from such a broken spell.

Metalsmith

 

[Anubis]

Here's three:

Using the Sorcerer:

round 1: Sorcer wins initiative (+9 vs. +8). He casts haste and moves up. Partial Action: Temporal Stasis, or Power Word, Stun, Or Otto's Irresistable Dace, etc.

round 2: Does whatever he has to do to finish you off, up to and including non-empowered spells.

round x: loot your corpse

You can't harm someone while they are in Temporal Stasis.

I can't argue with the other two examples, however. They are a good point.

 

[Anubis]

Alright... Anubis's argument is that Stacking Empower should not be allowed, correct? I can think of only one scenario in which this can truely be tested.

Send to IDENTICAL wizards, both with Empower, up against one another. Allow one of the wizards to stack his empowers. Now, if the stacking wizard wins more than 75% of the time, yes, I think stacking empower might be a little high on the end of the scale, even for epic duels.

I have neither the expertise nor the will to pull off such a match up. A number may try, but remember, no ONE scenario will prove the point.

I think the lines are pretty much drawn on this one already. But good luck for those that want to continue this little duel. --End Bite--

Well, honestly, I can't say that it'll happen. Each Wizard would win about 50% of the time, because they have the same initiative, and either could kill the other in one hit even without Empower Spell. (Haste-Meteor Swarm-Power Word, Kill would do it easily either way.)

The one being allowed to use Empower Spell will do more damage, though, than the one not using Empoer Spell.

 

[Anubis]

Actually, more than specific encounters that provide only anecdotal information, wouldn't further analysis of how multiply empowered spells compare against other spells that would normally fill the slot they are taking up provide stronger general evidence one way or the other?

For instance, if you can show that multiply empowering spells enough times to take up a lvl X spell slot tends to create spells that are clearly more powerful than normal lvl X spells, and that the extra power is great enough that having to spend a feat on "empower spell" doesn't justify it, then you have a pretty good case that allowing multiple empowers is unbalanced.

That being said, I'm not the expert to do this

What do you think?

-Skaros

Okay, I can do that.

Let's take an Empowered Fireball and compare it to Cone of Cold. Both are 5th-Level Spells. Let's cast them both with a Level 15 Wizard.

Fireball [Empower]: 35 (3.5*10) + (3.5*10/2) = 52 damage

Cone of Cold: 52 damage (3.5*15)

Here they are equal power. Of course that doesn't stack Empower Spell. Now for a second example, which may be better because these two spells are actually more similar. Oh, and the fact that THIS one actually stacks Empower Spell, which is the point we're all addressing. We'll use a Twice-Empowered Fireball and a Delayed Blast Fireball. This time we'll use a Level 20 Wizard.

Fireball [Empower x2]: 35 (3.5*10) + (3.5*10/2)*2 = 70 damage

Delayed Blast Fireball: 70 damage (3.5*20)

Seems they're equal again.

Who says Anubis doesn't tell both sides of the story without consideration, eh? Of course, this doesn't show MUCH because there isn't a lot of stacking going on here, just two for the second example. Wait a sec, lemme give a third example with much more stacking going on. We'll use a Thrice-Empowered Flame Arrow and compare it to Meteor Swarm. A Level 20 Wizard will cast these spells

Flame Arrow [Empower x3]: 70 (3.5*4*5) + (3.5*4*5/2)*3 = 175

Meteor Swarm: 84 (3.5*24) + 21 (3.5*6) + 21 (3.5*6) + 21 (3.5*6) + 21 (3.5*6) = 168

(I admit I still don't quite know how Meteor Swarm is supposed to work, the thing in the PH is very very poor at describing it. I'm not sure how a single person could be in the direct path of four meteors that go in different directions, honestly.)

Now stacking Empower Spell is starting to show its effects. This does offer proof that it seems to be balanced at low levels, not getting unbalanced until high levels.

That said, perhaps the real problem is that many of you have not played an Epic game? In that case, the designers made a grave error not playtesting this out before releasing the ELH or allowing Empower Spell to stack . . .