(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

[orsal]

Because the learner isn't a divine class. Since the learner is more arcane based than divine, I decided that the learner should use arcana for undead, rather than religion.

Not sure that's really important. I had taken the use of knowledge skills for learning to suggest that, in order to copy a creature's ability, it helps to know something about the creature. You can have all the Knowledge(arcana) ranks in the world and know diddly-squat about undead.

Am I misreading the intent here?

 

[GnomeWorks]

Not sure that's really important. I had taken the use of knowledge skills for learning to suggest that, in order to copy a creature's ability, it helps to know something about the creature. You can have all the Knowledge(arcana) ranks in the world and know diddly-squat about undead.

Am I misreading the intent here?

IMO, arcana has more to do with undead than religion. What is religion going to tell you about undead? Yes, I am aware that the knowledge skills say that, to learn about undead, you take ranks in religion. However, I disagree with that, and as far as learning is concerned, I think that arcana has more to do with undead than religion.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Any other comments? Please?

 

[Knight Otu]

What is religion going to tell you about undead?

Everything. For better or worse, that is a fundamental D&Dism. Clerics are the guys who you bring to handle Undead. Clerics are the masters of handling positive and negative energy, the forces that drive the living and the undead, respectively. Every true cleric has some way to handle undead.

 

[orsal]

IMO, arcana has more to do with undead than religion.

Are you proposing that knowledge about undead be moved from knowledge(religion) to knowledge(arcana)? Because as the rules stand, it's knowledge(religion) to know about undead, and therefore quite anomalous to keep that rule while using a different knowledge skill for Learning.

I'm sure we can all point to rules which we think would make more sense, have more internal logic, in a somewhat different form. In such cases, it's reasonable either to houserule the change, or to accept the rules as is and build around their internal logic. To keep the rules while designing future rules around the internal logic of the alternate rules we're not using, that's the most illogical way I can think of to do things.

[/quote-GnomeWorks]What is religion going to tell you about undead? Yes, I am aware that the knowledge skills say that, to learn about undead, you take ranks in religion. However, I disagree with that, and as far as learning is concerned, I think that arcana has more to do with undead than religion.[/QUOTE]

My first response was going to be to point out that it's clerics who create undead. But then I realized that, in 3.x/e, Animate Dead can be an arcane spell (albeit one level higher) as well as a divine.

Nevertheless, consider the poewr to control or rebuke undead. Assigning it uniquely to the Cleric class establishes that there's something about the essence of undead that's tied up with the divine sphere in a way that no other creature type is, excepting possibly outsiders from the outer planes.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Are you proposing that knowledge about undead be moved from knowledge(religion) to knowledge(arcana)? Because as the rules stand, it's knowledge(religion) to know about undead, and therefore quite anomalous to keep that rule while using a different knowledge skill for Learning.

No. This was not what I was proposing at all. I was proposing that, for purposes of the learner using a knowledge skill to learn a monster ability, that he use knowledge (arcana) instead of knowledge (religion) because it just made more sense. The learner is not a divine class, it is an arcane class. Knowledge (religion) does aboslutely nothing for him, and requiring him to learn a skill just to learn abilities from one creature type seems absurd, at least to me.

But, since this seems to be a major sticking point at the moment, I'll change it.

 

[GnomeWorks]

...sorry if my response came off as a little harsh there, orsal. RL's been getting to me lately, and you and KO focusing on something that seemed so minor to me was a bit frustrating. I'll try to give a more reasonable explanation behind knowledge (arcana)...

For one, when I think of what classes primarily deal with undead, two come to mind: cleric and necromancer. Clerics have relatively little to do with undead than necromancers. Sure, clerics raise the dead and whatnot, but they don't interact with actual undead other than to turn/rebuke them. Necromancers, on the other hand, raise them, command them, and otherwise deal with undead-related issues. Not only that, but liches are also, in my experience, typically arcane in nature, rather than divine.

So while the SRD may say that knowledge of religion is related to undead, I really feel that its more arcana than religious in nature. So I went with arcana for purposes of learning undead abilities, rather than religion. Religion doesn't fit the theme of the class, nor does it adequately reflect the nature of undead, IMO. Religion may say that undead come from hell or the abyss, but arcana gives undead more definition. Clerics may be able to turn or rebuke undead, but wizards can really mess with them and focus exclusively on them, while clerics just have that ability as an additional feature.

If, as judges, you two would rather see it as knowledge (religion), I'll change it - like I said, it's not really that big of a point, and I'd rather see this approved than not over something small like that. But I'd rather keep it knowledge (arcana).

 

[azmodean]

This line:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the learner's Charisma modifier.

Needs to be changed to something like:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + 1/2 the learner's class level + the learner's Charisma modifier.

This brings up an interesting point, what is the effective caster level of the learner? Considering that a character must be pretty high level (sorceror9, Bard6) I would think you add existing caster levels to the learner levels. If this is so, the above line could be:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + the learner's caster level + the learner's Charisma modifier.

With it specified somewhere that the learner adds pre-existing caster levels and learner levels together to get the learner caster level.

Also I have to add my support to requiring know(religion) to know anything about undead. Regardless of wether the class is primarily arcane in nature or wether it makes sense, the rules require know(religion) in order to know about undead, and we need to work within the framework of the rules.

 

[GnomeWorks]

This line:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the learner's Charisma modifier.

Needs to be changed to something like:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + 1/2 the learner's class level + the learner's Charisma modifier.

How do you figure that? Talents are spell-like abilities; they function like spells, even though they use a different mechanic. They can continue to use the spellcasting DC.

This brings up an interesting point, what is the effective caster level of the learner? Considering that a character must be pretty high level (sorceror9, Bard6) I would think you add existing caster levels to the learner levels. If this is so, the above line could be:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + the learner's caster level + the learner's Charisma modifier.

That is a good point, and I should indicate the learner's effective caster level with his talents.

However, I disagree with your formula there if they're added together. That would make the saving throw DCs all in the low- to mid-20's at first, and in the high-20's to low-30's when a character finishes the PrC. I don't know about anyone else, but that seems extremely high to me, and very unnecessary.

Also I have to add my support to requiring know(religion) to know anything about undead. Regardless of wether the class is primarily arcane in nature or wether it makes sense, the rules require know(religion) in order to know about undead, and we need to work within the framework of the rules.

I think I've already made it pretty clear I disagree with that, but thanks for the input.

 

[azmodean]

How do you figure that? Talents are spell-like abilities; they function like spells, even though they use a different mechanic. They can continue to use the spellcasting DC.

Never mind, I had missed where you said that the effective spell level was learner level -1. The problem with this is that a Bard6/learner10 will be able to use talents as 9th level abilities. On the other hand, a sorceror9/learner7 will only be using talents as 6th level abilities. I think the equivalent spell level needs to be based on a combination of arcane caster levels and learner caster levels.

However, I disagree with your formula there if they're added together. That would make the saving throw DCs all in the low- to mid-20's at first, and in the high-20's to low-30's when a character finishes the PrC. I don't know about anyone else, but that seems extremely high to me, and very unnecessary.

My mistake, I meant to put:
The save DC for a talent (if it allows a save) is 10 + 1/2the learner's caster level + the learner's Charisma modifier.
With the learner's caster level being learner levels+arcane caster levels.

This would put the progression similar to a sorceror, though all of the talents/day would be at max level, which might be a bit overpowered. Hmmm, that gets up in the vicinity of 20/day at learner lvl 10, which seems to be a bit much. That's the problem with getting away from traditional spell levels I guess. Not sure what would be appropriate.