Proposal: Minotaur - MM, (Dragon,) PH3 - which one(s) allow for L4W

[elecgraystone]

Yep, no errata on MM for minotaurs. Pretty sloppy if their real intent is to phase out oversized since not doing it is almost a guarantee that oversized will stick around since not every group is going to get every book and/or DDI but they'll all get the errata.

 

[evilbob]

I have had very long and very angry discussions with folks over this.

In the end, the actual situation is: the MM race is superseded by the player race description (for players only).

The MM was not errata'd because there is no change to the minotaur race when used as a monster.

The player race of "minotaur" however - as introduced in Dragon - replaces the player's ability to play a minotaur out of the MM. The same thing has happened in other cases (gnoll) and will likely happen again (bugbear).

The new PHB3 may further redefine the Dragon article, in which case those rules have also be superseded.

No errata, and no errata necessary. Minotaurs with the oversized quality are simply unavailable as PC character choices. Just like "being a choker" is unavailable to PCs. The fix was already implemented. The character builder reflects this update. If you played a minotaur, your race was altered.

Now, if you wish to continue playing as an oversized minotaur, that is totally cool. But it -is- a house rule according to WotC. Everything in this thread about allowing a minotaur with an oversized quality could basically be summed up as a house rule allowing a new race: oversized-quality minotaurs ("long armed" was a good name). 1 more house rule, 1 more race option, 1 more PC that doesn't need to be changed.

 

[renau1g]

Well to be fair it's only an option for those with DDI accounts by this definition those without have been told their Minotaur PC's are no longer options.

 

[evilbob]

Well to be fair it's only an option for those with DDI accounts by this definition those without have been told their Minotaur PC's are no longer options.

I'm sorry but I don't quite follow you here.

Anyone can have a "longarmed" minotaur: it is just considered a house rule by WotC. If you have DDI it won't type in right, tho. If you don't have DDI then it doesn't matter.

 

[elecgraystone]

I'm sorry but I don't quite follow you here.

Anyone can have a "longarmed" minotaur: it is just considered a house rule by WotC. If you have DDI it won't type in right, tho. If you don't have DDI then it doesn't matter.

The point is that a player an make a totally legal minotaur out of the MM. There isn't anything to tell them otherwise other than exclusive optional content they don't have access to. there is NO way for them to know it's houseruled even though they have every rule book and all the errata. THAT is an issue.

It's easy to say it's houseruled by looking in the DDI, but that's a bit tough when you don't have it. Without an errata to the MM it isn't a houserule really. It's a book legal race until it shows up in a hardcover or they errata the MM.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

by this definition those without have been told their Minotaur PC's are no longer options.

Well... Yeah! That's exactly what happened.

And I don't see the problem. MM races were never playtested as player races. They warn upfront that DM should be careful because the traits were more in line with monsters stats and PC stats.

Oversized weapon is a big advantage which becomes huge at epic level when you always use multi[w]. a 5[w] attack with an oversized maul is doing 10 points of extra damage on average compared to someone using a normal maul. Come on! Of course that's problematic. I will always lean toward removing oversized weapon from L4W.

 

[evilbob]

The point is that a player an make a totally legal minotaur out of the MM. There isn't anything to tell them otherwise other than exclusive optional content they don't have access to. there is NO way for them to know it's houseruled even though they have every rule book and all the errata. THAT is an issue.

It's easy to say it's houseruled by looking in the DDI, but that's a bit tough when you don't have it.

All I can say is that I completely understand your points; I have championed them myself. That doesn't change anything I said, tho.

In the end, we are a group and it is up to us what to allow.

 

[Kalidrev]

And I say that the Bugbear and the Minotaur just suck, as shown thus far, without the Oversized feature.

The Bugbear without Oversized (and nothing to replace it with) is a worse version of the Half-Orc; Let's compare:

Stats: Both have +2 Dex, +2 Str

Half-Orc Skills: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate;

Bugbear Skills: +2 Intimidate, +2 Stealth;

Comparison: Even Steven

Half-Orc Racial abilities: Furious Assault Encounter Power: +1[W]/+1d8 damage on any attack you hit with as a FREE action; Half-Orc resilience: 5 temp HP first time bloodied; Swift Charge: +2 speed when charging.

Bugbear Racial abilities: Oversized: use large weapons; Predatory Eye: mini sneak attack (+1d6 dmg IF you have combat advantage, and you must spend a minor action to activate it).

Comparison: The larger weapon size evens out the damage that the Bugbear is missing in comparison to what it's losing compared to the half-orc encounter power, but it's racial ability sucks compared to the half-orcs unless said half-orc is using a 1d4 weapon. Without Oversized, the Bugbear would seriously pale in comparison to the Half-Orc.

Now let's compare the Minotaurs:

Stats: Both have +2 Str, +2 Con

Skills: Both have +2 Nature, +2 Perception

Racial Abilities:

MM Mino: Ferocity (free action melee basic attack when you are reduced to 0 HP), Oversized (same as bugbear), Goring Charge: Str +2/4/6 vs AC charge attack; deals 1d6/2d6/3d6+str dmg and knocks prone.

Dragon Mino: Ferocity (same as MM Mino), Goring Charge: Str +4/6/8 vs AC charge attack that deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 +Str damage and knocks prone; Heedless Charge: +2 racial bonus to AC vs OA's during a charge.

Comparison: Both races are pretty darned similar, but I think the MM Mino still has the upper hand; Oversized gives a steady increased weapon damage increase over the Dragon Minotaur, though the Dragon Minotaur's Goring Charge is more accurate. The Heedless Charge is nice, but nothing to write home about...it's not even as good as the halflings racial bonus vs op attacks (cause it's situational). In short, I don't like how they have changed the Minotaur thus far.

I'm curious to see what the PHB3 Minotaur is going to be like, but until then, I would much rather have the MM Minotaur than the Dragon Minotaur.

 

[elecgraystone]

They warn upfront that DM should be careful because the traits were more in line with monsters stats and PC stats.

That's a joke really. Look at all the races updated. Now look at how many things have been taken away. That'd be oversized weapons so it seems they did a mighty fine job of making them in line with PC races.

Oversized weapon is a big advantage which becomes huge at epic level.

Never seen oversized in epic but I've seen several in paragon and it never seemed huge to me. I've seen 2 barbarians, one with oversized and one without, using 4W powers and I never saw a big difference in damage. I'm sure it LOOKS like the oversized barbarian should have been doing 8 more damage but that's not what I saw. Maybe it make a difference if you super optimize at epic but the average joe at normal level we'll be playing at?

As far as what Kalidrev said, total agreement. With the glut of STR/CON races, I don't see picking a non-MM minotaur. So far the racials and feats do not make up for the oversized and don't make me want to play one over a warforged or a goliath, Heck even the orc looks better to me than the dragon minotaur...

 

[renau1g]

Like elec/Kal mentioned there is no feat support for the bugbear or MM minotaur so trading a +1 dmg per W is fair when the goliath can grab greatweapon prowess for +2 dmg all the time + the feat to get to re-roll his first attack each encounter (incredible! I turned a crit-miss into a critical hit in a Paragon game with goliath barbarian) As more and more books/magazines come out offering more options for the fully supported races it will become an even wider gap.