(Proposal)Some UA OGC Stuffs

DerHauptman

First Post
I think with the one or the other limit on the rage type and the one handed weapons only it is comparable to the normal rage class ability. Which is what it should be compared to not the base line. Compare it to the rage as written. It is balanced with that. My original proposal was lost in the crash and honestly I really have no dog in the fight so I gave up.

I think its balanced I wrote some analysis back then but I think sometimes proposals are too much of a popularity contest to be worth the effort.

Just an observation, not a slanderous invitation to hijack.
 

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Erekose13

Explorer
Okay with the help of excel and a quick tutorial in probability I've run the numbers.

Assuming a 1st level barbarian with an 18 str. To hit: +5 With greataxe avg damage = 6.5+9
With normal Rage as written he gets a +4 to STR
If said barbarian is trying to hit a creature with AC 18 he has a 50% chance of hitting.
The average damage * chance of hitting = damage output = 7.75

With the Whirling Frenzy as written in UA he gets a -2 to hit and a +4 to STR and 1 extra attack.
Against the same target AC his chance of hitting increases to (1-60%*60%) = 64%.
The damage output with the same weapon is 9.92.

This is an increase of 128%. This increase will be consistent any time the chance to hit is 50%. Any increase or decrease to the chance to hit will lower that number.

So theres the numbers on Whirling Frenzy as written.

With the change suggested being "limited to one handed weapons only", that drops the average damage down only a little bit (battle axe = 4.5 avg + full 2 hd str. bonus as that is not being restricted). The chance to hit stays the same, the damage output changes to 8.64 which is still a 111% increase.

This is all assuming a 50% chance to hit base. Moving away from that number changes the damage output negatively. However, it will be greater than the regular Rage except when the to hit number is 1 higher than the number rolled (8 in our example) or within 5 of the max roll (AC 28-24).

I am postulating that the reason Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting work is that you cannot attack with the bonus to damage you gain from wielding a weapon with two hands.

In our example above if you were restricted to using that weapon one handed only then the damage per hit would be reduced to 10.5, with a damage output of 6.72, which is only 87% efficient. Which would mean it would always be a bad idea to choose Whirling Frenzy over Rage.

Does that all make sense?
 

Erekose13

Explorer
Wait no that doesn't work.
ME said:
This is all assuming a 50% chance to hit base. Moving away from that number changes the damage output negatively. However, it will be greater than the regular Rage except when the to hit number is 1 higher than the number rolled (8 in our example) or within 5 of the max roll (AC 28-24).

I am postulating that the reason Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting work is that you cannot attack with the bonus to damage you gain from wielding a weapon with two hands.

Thats all wrong... I was equating the change in percentage chance to a change in percentage damage output. I'll try to figure out where I went wrong there and see what I can find.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Explorer
I'd just like to point out that the totems, as listed in the first post of this thread, are incorrect. For instance, the horse totem denies the barbarian the +10' movement bonus, but gives no alternate 1st level ability. I assume the judges are approving the totems as they are presented in Unearthed Arcana? If that's the case, I'll go through and find the correct versions. My barbarian might be interested in taking one of the totems.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Explorer
Barbarian Variant: Totem Barbarian

In a barbarian-heavy campaign, you can increase the variation between barbarian characters if each barbarian tribe dedicates itself to a different totem creature, such as the bear or the jaguar. The choice of a totem must be taken at 1st level, and cannot be changed later except under extreme circumstances (such as the barbarian being adopted by another tribe).

If you use this variant, the barbarian loses one or more of the following standard class features: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge. In place of these abilities, the barbarian gains class features as determined by his totem. All totems do not necessarily grant abilities at the same levels, nor do they all grant the same number of abilities. These class features are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise indicated.

The list of totems discussed here is by no means exhaustive. If you prefer to use other totems, you can either substitute the totem name for that of a similar creature (such as changing the Lion Totem to the Tiger Totem) or create a new set of totem abilities, using the information here as a guide.


Ape Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the ape totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, an ape-totem barbarian gains a climb speed equal to one-half his base land speed (round down to the nearest 5-foot interval). For instance, a human, elf, half-elf, or half-orc ape-totem barbarian has a climb speed of 15 feet, while a dwarf, gnome, or halfling ape-totem barbarian has a climb speed of 10 feet.
* At 2nd level, an ape-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
* A 3rd level ape-totem barbarian gains Power Attack as a bonus feat.
* At 5th level, an ape-totem barbarian's climb speed equals his base land speed.

Bear Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the bear totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* A 1st-level bear-totem barbarian gains Toughness as a bonus feat.
* At 2nd level, a bear-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* A 3rd-level bear-totem barbarian gains Great Fortitude as a bonus feat.
* Beginning at 5th level, a bear-totem barbarian gains a +4 bonus on grapple checks when raging.

Boar Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the boar totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* When raging, a 1st-level boar-totem barbarian is treated as having the Diehard feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* At 3rd level and higher, a boar-totem barbarian's rage lasts for 2 rounds longer than normal.
* Beginning at 7th level, a boar-totem barbarian's damage reduction is 1 point higher than the normal value. Thus, at 7th level, a boar-totem barbarian's damage reduction is 2/-, and it rises by 1 point every three levels thereafter.

Dragon Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the dragon totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* A 1st-level dragon-totem barbarian gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.
* At 2nd level, a dragon-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on saves against paralysis and sleep effects.
* At 5th level, a dragon-totem barbarian gains the frightful presence ability. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 barbarian level + barbarian's Cha modifier.

Eagle Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the eagle totem does not gain the standard fast movement and trap sense barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, an eagle-totem barbarian's keen vision grants him a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
* An eagle-totem barbarian gains Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat at 3rd level.

Horse Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the horse totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 2nd level, a horse-totem barbarian gains Run as a bonus feat.
* A 3rd-level horse-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Handle Animal checks made with regard to horses and a +2 bonus on Ride checks made to ride a horse.
* At 5th level, a horse-totem barbarian gains Endurance as a bonus feat.

Jaguar Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the jaguar totem represents the "standard" barbarian and gains the standard barbarian class features.
Lion Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the lion totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, a lion-totem barbarian gains Run as a bonus feat.
* A 2nd-level lion-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
* A 5th-level lion-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls whenever he charges.

Serpent Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the serpent totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, a serpent-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
* A 2nd-level serpent-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Move Silently checks.
* At 3rd level, a serpent-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* A serpent-totem barbarian gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat at 5th level.

Wolf Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the wolf totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* A 2nd-level wolf-totem barbarian gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* A 5th-level wolf-totem barbarian gains Track as a bonus feat.

Copied verbatim from The Hypertext d20 SRD
 


Bront

The man with the probe
I noticed a few errors, but thought they wer simply typoes (as it looks like he typed it out, poor guy).

I checked UA though, no big deal. My vote stands.
 

Bront

The man with the probe
Ok, let's check this out statisticly for the Whirling frenzy. I'll do a 2 handed with normal rage, and a two handed, one handed, and light with whirl.

Greataxe (1d12), Battleaxe (1d8), and Hand Axe (1d6) all x3 crit.

5th level Barbarian, with an 18 base strength.

1H/2H is 1 handed damage over (minus) 2 handed on an average strike.
Li/2H is light weapon damage over (minus) 2 handed on an average strike
Code:
AC	1H/2H	Li/2H
10	5.75	3.66
11	4.59	2.61
12	3.44	1.57
13	3.14	1.38
14	2.83	1.18
15	2.53	0.99
16	2.23	0.80
17	1.93	0.61
18	1.62	0.41
19	1.32	0.22
20	1.02	0.03
21	0.72	-0.1
22	0.41	-0.3
23	0.11	-0.5
24	-0.19	-0.7
25	-0.49	-0.9
26	-0.80	-1.1
27	-1.10	-1.3
28	-1.40	-1.5
29	-0.66	-0.7
30	0.20	0.10
31	0.28	0.18
[B]Total	27.46	6.26[/B]
I did a total, because in general, the total should be close to 0. It's not, obviously.

Let's try powerattacking for with the greataxe, see if that helps.
Code:
AC	1H/2H	Li/2H
10	1.57	-0.52
11	1.49	-0.49
12	1.40	-0.47
13	1.32	-0.44
14	1.24	-0.41
15	1.16	-0.39
16	1.07	-0.36
17	0.99	-0.33
18	0.91	-0.30
19	0.83	-0.28
20	0.74	-0.25
21	0.66	-0.22
22	0.58	-0.19
23	0.50	-0.16
24	0.41	-0.14
25	0.33	-0.11
26	0.25	-0.08
27	0.17	-0.05
28	0.08	-0.03
29	0.08	-0.03
Total	15.75	-5.25
So, normal Rage with a feat (Powerattack), Whirling frenzy is slightly inferior with light weapons, and still superior with 1 handed weapons. Without the feat, Whirling Frenzy is superior.

I'd be willing to aprove it if it only allowed the use of light weapons, or was tweeked in some other way. Without that, Whirling frenzy is completely overpowering.

Note, both tables stoped after nat 20s were required to hit for all weapons invilved, hense why the first table is slightly bigger (normal rage with no power attack has a +11 to hit, all other attacks listed had a +9).
 

Erekose13

Explorer
I've tried looking at it again and while my numbers dont come out to the same, they do have the same results. Without restricting it to light weapons, whirling frenzy is just always better than rage. Der Hauptman, did you have different numbers somewhere?
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Yeah, originally I got him to agree to Light weapons on the grounds that Whirling Frenzy is *still* overpowered, and becomes even moreso the more powerful the character becomes, but at least since 2-handed Power Attack is unfairly powerful at 3.5, we are attaching our own little mini-hobble to prevent Whirling Frenzy from overtaking normal Rage for at least a little while. It will still do it eventually, though, rest assured :(
 

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