Proposal: Weapon Training Feats are not Multi-Class Feats

[elecgraystone]

I guess the whip is nice too for anyone who wants to land a melee attack but doesn't want to get attacked back or care about the damage they deal.

It's a 1 handed, off hand reach weapon. I've seen a tempest fighter do pretty good with 2 whips.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

It's a 1 handed, off hand reach weapon. I've seen a tempest fighter do pretty good with 2 whips.

I haven't looked closely at the tempest (or really, at all), but is this significantly better than a spiked chain? Giving the enemy -2 to hit is fantastic, but it's at the cost of some damage (not that much though) and only needing one good weapon rather than two. So yes, it is significantly better, because giving the enemy -2 to hit is fantastic. Thanks for clarifying .

However, unless the tempest does some crazy thing I'm unaware of, two whips deal less damage than one spiked chain, so I wasn't completely wrong. And I feel that the chain powers are better than the whip's, but I don't know if tempest fighters have enough dex to care

 

[KenHood]

Jack-of-all-trades or no, it doesn't make much sense that bards can learn as many weapons as they want, but fighters are stuck with one.

That's one of my issues with the set-up.

I like the suggestion that Superior Weapon Proficiency automatically include the abilities afforded under training. It makes sense. If a character wants to go up the power-swap tree and become a specialist, then they take the Weapon Training feat. But, I don't see the power swap feats as being too strong. You're not ending up with more powers or better powers than other characters, just different powers.

Now... the whip. My goodness, but someone is watching too many movies thinking that would make a decent weapon for combat. It hurts to get hit by a whip, but it will hardly kill you. Wearing a heavy jacket protects you from it, and metal armor--sheesh--that should negate it completely. Basically, it's good for annoying cows and making loud noises to scare animals.

 

[elecgraystone]

I haven't looked closely at the tempest (or really, at all), but is this significantly better than a spiked chain? Giving the enemy -2 to hit is fantastic, but it's at the cost of some damage (not that much though) and only needing one good weapon rather than two.

Since double weapons do not exist here, then yes, whips are much better. Tempests are your two weapon fighters so you'll always be buying 2 weapons, JUST like a melee ranger has to.

However, unless the tempest does some crazy thing I'm unaware of, two whips deal less damage than one spiked chain

Your powers require 2 weapons, so 1 single spiked chain means you can't even use your powers.

And I feel that the chain powers are better than the whip's, but I don't know if tempest fighters have enough dex to care

I didn't even look at the power swaps to be honest. I was saying that two one handed, off hand reach weapons worked well. Never saw the swaps used.

It hurts to get hit by a whip, but it will hardly kill you.

This is why I found this comment kind of funny.

You shouldn't have to spend 2 (two) feats just to be able to make a weapon do what it was designed to do IMHO.

The whip and the blowgun do WAY more that with just the Superior Weapon Proficiency than they were designed for.

I like the suggestion that Superior Weapon Proficiency automatically include the abilities afforded under training.

This then makes them TOO good. No other weapons give conditions or minuses to hit. We are stuck with them either being too weak for Superior Weapon Proficiency normally and too strong for it to it include the training bonuses. I'd be more inclined to change net, blowgun and bolo's martial weapons since they aren't very superior. Whip and garotte both give unique features so I'd keep them both superior. Then require that you have proficiency in the weapons to take the basic training feat, dropping the multiclass.

That way fighters and others that get martial weapons could more easily pick up and it solves the issue with the proficiency giving out too much.

 

[ryryguy]

I'd be more inclined to change net, blowgun and bolo's martial weapons since they aren't very superior. Whip and garotte both give unique features so I'd keep them both superior. Then require that you have proficiency in the weapons so take the basic training feat, dropping the multiclass.

That way fighters and others that get martial weapons could more easily pick up and it solves the issue with the proficiency giving out too much.

This seems like a good direction... I was thinking that it would have the nice side benefit of making it so bards would need an extra feat to get to the training, since they wouldn't have proficiency to start. But they actually have martial ranged, and you've left the melee weapons superior, so they'd still be in the same boat. (And didn't the 3e bard get proficiency with whip? It does seem like a kind of bardy weapon....)

In the end though, leaving garrote and whip as superior means you'd need to take two feats to get the mastery feat benefits. Are they really so superior as to justify that? Ken, would you actually spend two feats for Tonk to get garrote?

 

[elecgraystone]

In the end though, leaving garrote and whip as superior means you'd need to take two feats to get the mastery feat benefits. Are they really so superior as to justify that? Ken, would you actually spend two feats for Tonk to get garrote?

For the garrote bonuses, it's worth 2 feats. Start with a strong rogue then add damage to the starting grab, make the escape -2, make them grant combt advantage AND let rogues use their powers/sneak attacks with it. Sorry but it's not worth just one normal feat.

 

[KenHood]

Ken, would you actually spend two feats for Tonk to get garrote?

No. It would not be worth the effort. I'd end up spending one feat and waiting two levels with a weapon that I wouldn't bother using before I could spend the second feat. That would be about a year of play-by-post. If I spend a feat, I want to get something worthwhile for it. And, frankly, it's just blasted stupid to have a garrote that does not grab when it attacks.

I would be satisfied if use of a garrote required combat advantage.

 

[elecgraystone]

Ahh... The Garrote DOES grab without the training feat. If you read it's base description, you see that it deals damage as part of a grab attack.

At base it's better than a dagger [high crit] without the ability to do damage on the grab attack. SO 1 bump from simple to martial for the high crit and another to superior for the grab attack. Seems fair.

 

[KenHood]

D'oh!

Completely missed the grab part in the description.

Must be getting old.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Since double weapons do not exist here, then yes, whips are much better. Tempests are your two weapon fighters so you'll always be buying 2 weapons, JUST like a melee ranger has to.

Actually, the spiked chain is allowed as a double weapon. It may have happened by accident, because that proposal got so freaking convoluted and everyone's attention was drawn to Reaper's Touch, but it got through, and JoeNotCharles said he didn't mind the chain being a double weapon. Granted, that was when it took your multiclass feat to use it as such, so that may need to be revisited depending on how this turns out.

Your powers require 2 weapons, so 1 single spiked chain means you can't even use your powers.

I thought tempest fighters loved double weapons. Is this operating under the assumption that the spiked chain isn't a double weapon?