Proposed Changes to Redeeming Light/Right of Domain/Corruption/Mind Thief

[Kalanyr]

It is becoming very obvious to me that the above powers may as well not exist (especially not RoD/MT when you can irrevocably lose 5 hard one powers from dropping a tier at the wrong time). Vanor's new ranking system would make it even worse, it would remove the extra rank for beating a Higher Tier incentive. Given this and a statement of Vanor's in chat after a long debate about the merits of various paths I decided to put the following forth.

Idea 1: Drop Right of Domain and Mind Thief, Replace with a Sig Loc/Style of choice at Tiers 4,5,6,7. This is not so bad for Lights but it puts Darks ahead of Yakuza in power pretty much overwhelmingly. Keep Redeeming Light/Corruption as flavour.

Idea 2: As above drop Redeeming Light/Corruption replace with something else.

Idea 3: As above except Drop RL/C replace with nothing.

Idea 4: Keep Mind Thief/Right of Domain but detach from Redeeming Light/Corruption limit each to 4 locs/styles respectively. (That is if you win have a Domain/Thief round to determine if you get the domain, if RL/C is agreed to it can be used in this round too)

Idea 5: As above remove RL/C altogether

Idea 6:As above replace RL/C with something else

Idea 7: Keep as is.

Idea 8: Remove the wretched powers so idiots (me for example) won't go on to the Light/Dark Path thinking they get power that they won't.

Idea 9: Replace all 4 powers with something else.

Idea 10: Got an idea of my own. Please post if so.

Well people Votes and thoughts are welcome.

 

[Wicht]

personally, I would keep it as is but I am unreasonably biased having greatly benefitted from Mind Thief before and having written the present rules

 

[Kalanyr]

I wish there was a Brotherhood of Darkness who would idiotically throw themselves at me despite being Thugs and Gang Bosses.

Given that I would probably feel the same way, Wicht.

Vote noted though.

 

[Zappo]

Seeing that in the new rules there is a much, much, much vaster difference in power between tiers, clearly it would be insane for a Thug/Gang Boss to face a high-ranking Dark. Even one tier above yours means that you're going to have a tough fight, let alone two or more.

I would find some way to spread the possibility of acquiring MT/RD through Light/Dark tiers instead of getting it all at one tier. That way, the negative effect of dropping a tier is reduced, and you can start gaining styles/locations immediately and gradually. Of course, a few balance tweaks would be needed, but you get the idea. Maybe something like every tier after the 2nd gives you one "slot".

This would require a new way to fill those slots, tho'. Some random brain currents:

- could give the chance whenever the fight is won with a multi-hit move ("special move finish" ), which also means that, even though you have the possibility, it's rather hard to gain a stolen style/location at low tiers, but it becomes easier later on. Thus making the spread similar to what the current spread would be if people accepted RL/CO fights, though smoother.
- could give the chance whenever the fight is won (too easy)

 

[reiella]

So did Meowth Wicht, and I do have to agree here.

If only from the perspective of Dark v Yakuza...

At Tier 5, without MindThief at all, Dark have one fewer sig style, and 4 fewer sig locations. Same number of Dirty Tricks, a more useful dirty trick, one more poison blade, and Foul Spirit...

At Tier 5, with a fully powered Mind Thief, Dark end up with 4 more sig styles, 4 fewer sig locations. Same number number of Dirty Tricks, a more useful trick, one more poison blade, and Foul Spirit, and the ability to pick and choose your styles...

This is the same concern I mentioned before too though.

When looking at Light, it's a bit easier to see a disadvantage without Redeeming Light... As just comparing them against Dark, they get a Purity of Focus instead of one of the tricks that Dark gets, while balanced when compared to each other, it isn't so much balanced relative to everyone else, and this brings up that fun problem of if Light is more effective against Villains, in order to be balanced, they need to be less effective against non-villains. Part of the trouble is that, a lighter's Purity of Focus will never stop the same tier Dark fighter's dirty tricks (he always has one more DT than lighter has PoF and the Dark still left with a useful Sneaky Trick... Against a same tiered Yakuza at least they can negate the Yak's DTs at Tier 6 and 7, before then, we always have one more DT than their number of PoF...

That said, I'd personally go instead for a 3 style/loc bundle instead of 4 if you choose to redistribute it that way, and even then edgy because that still brings Dark fairly close to being flat-out better (although it'd be harder to see then).

In all truth, would be more in favor and changing Mind Thief/Right of Domain to something else entirely (Although honestly I'm at a lose for what).

 

[Phoenix8008]

Okay, out of the ideas presented so far, I like these.

Based on what Riella posted, I would vote for Dark losing one of it's DT's to help balance it vs. both Yak and Light. Or Light gaining another PoF instead to balance against each of them.

I like Zappo's idea for having a "slot" for MT/RoD at each Tier after 2. Although maybe the total number of slots should be limited to 3 instead of 4. Unsure on that though. This keeps the power from being completely stripped by dropping a tier. Connect the MT/RoD to something other than C/RL because hardly anyone will go against those powers. Just winning is too easy, so the 'winning by multi-hit move' would probaly be next best unless something else is found. Or just stay with having an extra round at the end for the MT/RoD.

Wicht, I know you did benefit greatly from those Mind Thief powers, but I also remember many times where Niko and Wicht were stuck complaining to each other about not getting any fights because all were afraid to get Redeemed/Corrupted. This problem of not being abel to get fights because of RL/C has existed as long as those powers have. We might as well just about get rid of them. I hate to say it because there was lots of good roleplaying that came from them in the old days. But it is a giant pain to not get any fights like that. And I don't know how else to fix that issue. I thought that it would be okay since there are now rules that allow people to change their Path whenever they want with the proper sacrifice, but it seems that people are even more unwilling to face conversion now than in the old days for some reason.

The only other way I see to keep the powers as flavor is to make it a non-combat thing that people could request to be converted if they wanted to do so without dropping a Tier. This would probably be used so infrequently though that it might as well not exist probably.

I wish I had better ideas, but that's about it for now.

 

[reiella]

At tier 2, a light and dark can generate a multi-hit move at will.

So in truth, having a bit of difficulty of seeing just how much 'less likly' it'd be to come up than just a simple win.

Won't make all too many comments as yet about the relative balances of the pathes though beyond which I've already said anyway.

 

[Wicht]

Ok, here is my main problem... other than conversion capabilities I do not see the real need for the paths of light and dark. There is the holy warrior/unholy warrior aspect I recognize, but the whole point of Holy Warriors (et. al) is the elimination of the otherside. Elimination of evil (and vica versa) can be accomplished in one of two ways in real life, Death or Conversion. As death matches are relatively rare (unfortunately IMO) the conversions serve the purpose of giving the Light/Dark a goal.

The problem of the loss of a tier loss of abilities is telling but if these powers are kept, a light warrior who falls ends up becoming more powerful than he was the first time he occupied the lower tier. Should a sash who falls in tiers be able to keep some of his powers from the higher tier? No. That would be nonsensical. Likewise with yakuza and honor. Why make the light and dark even more powerful? They are already, argueably, the strongest opponents one can face. The proper use of the Mind thief/right of Domain even once makes the power worthwhile. The next four acquired powers are just icing on the cake so to speak. The fact that these powers can be used and added to over the next few successive tiers makes them a long range power, not an immediate gratification kind of thing.

The fact that Dark and Light have problems finding fights against lower tiered fighters is problematic in all the paths and IMO has more to do with the present disgruntification than the actual powers of the path. But this is going to be true regardless unless we weaken the powers (which I would oppose). I am not sure there is a perfect solution to this problem but I doubt that merely shuffling one power for another will give current tier 4 and tier 5 fighters any more fights at the moment.

 

[Rathan]

wicht I see you point on how powerfull darks and lights are...but that's not the problem.......

the problem I see everyday epsecially with Kalanyr is no one will fight him.... or not many that is..... it is hard to use a power if no one will give you and chance to....

also if IF a high tier fighter gets in a fight with someone they can use RL/C and MT/RoD on, the challengee usually asks that RL/C not be used...... I IMO see as high tier fighters get less fights and less chances to use this than other paths get to use there powers..I see those powers as less usefull and because of this less powerfull........

 

[Wicht]

the problem I see everyday epsecially with Kalanyr is no one will fight him.... or not many that is..... it is hard to use a power if no one will give you and chance to....

I addressed this. I personally think the problem has less to do though with conversion abilites and more to do with tier level.

I myself would not turn down a fight because of conversion fears. I would turn down a fight if the person is 2 tiers above me however.

And people need to realize that losing to a dark or light warrior does not in itself equal automatic conversion. It means there is a 50/50 chance of then being converted.