Protection from Evil curiosity

[der_kluge]

Long story short, the Sorcerer in my game has a ring with a permanent Prot. from Evil in it. Now, you may think I'm insane for allowing this, but I did allow it.

That said, this particular character died after drowning in a flooded section of a dungeon after he was dominated by an Aboleth. This event happened two months ago, and the player continues to feel like he's been ripped off from this encounter.

His argument is that the Prot. from evil spell (this is where the curiosity comes into play here) has 3 effects. The first and third specifically state "this effect works against evil creatures". These effects are the +2 AC/Saves, and the prohibition against evil summoned creatures from touching you, essentially.

Now, my definition of evil, in terms of what this spell will actually prevent is anything with the [EVIL] subtype. So, if you've got a guy that likes killing little kids and eating them. That's definitely sick and twisted, but it's not [EVIL] per the subtype, and that guy would be unaffected by this spell. So, that places some reasonable limits on that spell.

But, the kicker is, and this is what my player pointed out to me last week, and what is *still* causing him heartburn after dying 2.5 months ago. (he was raised, anyway)

The second effect prevents mental control, including Dominate Person (which is what the Aboleth did), and a few other things. The last sentence of this effect boggles the mind. (paraphrasing) "This effect works regardless of alignment"

So, a 1st level spell that completely, and utterly blocks all forms of mental domination from, you got it, ANYONE. I told him that I didn't agree with that, and wouldn't allow that effect to work, and my ruling still stood. Because, it makes no sense that someone could cast protection from EVIL and prevent the good high priest of the church of Tyr from casting a dominate person on you.

Dumb. DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB.

I mean, jeez, that's like the most powerful 1st level spell - EVER. If a GM allowed a loose interpretation, it would work against anyone with an evil alignment, and would prevent -anyone- from mentally dominating you. I mean, I thought that's what Mind Blank (an 8TH LEVEL SPELL!) was for?!

Good lord, WoTC.

 

[Darklone]

That's why that spell has a shorter duration

 

[Belbarrus]

Hmmm, thats interesting. I dont have a problem with the "prevents domination or possession" part of the spell, I have a problem with the "prevents bodily contact from summoned monsters" part of the spell.

I house ruled that Pro Evil will not prevent bodily contact from anyone, but have no problem with the dominate/posession secttion.


B

 

[dcollins]

Good lord, WoTC.

Well, that's fundamentally the same effect that it's been since AD&D 1st Ed., long before WOTC was in the picture. The spell is meant to give short-term effect for a low-level party to protect themselves and get out of the way of something more powerful.

Yes, this is the end result when you allow any arbitrary spell to be made into a permanent magic item without thinking about it. Your player has cause to be upset if your house-rule of the spell wasn't made clear up front.

 

[der_kluge]

Well, that's fundamentally the same effect that it's been since AD&D 1st Ed., long before WOTC was in the picture. The spell is meant to give short-term effect for a low-level party to protect themselves and get out of the way of something more powerful.

Yes, this is the end result when you allow any arbitrary spell to be made into a permanent magic item without thinking about it. Your player has cause to be upset if your house-rule of the spell wasn't made clear up front.

Yes, perhaps, but I already have 11 pages of house rules, most specifically designed for this player. I shouldn't have assumed that protection from evil only worked on EVIL creatures. Jeez, how presumptive of me.

 

[der_kluge]

Hmmm, thats interesting. I dont have a problem with the "prevents domination or possession" part of the spell, I have a problem with the "prevents bodily contact from summoned monsters" part of the spell.

I house ruled that Pro Evil will not prevent bodily contact from anyone, but have no problem with the dominate/posession secttion.


B

I don't really have a problem with that aspect, because it seems to come into play so infrequently. And again, use your own judgement, but my version only applies to [EVIL] creatures. Which, to me, keeps it in line with the way the whole alignment concept works in 3.5. Alignment is much more important in 3.5 than in 3.0.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Just a clarification, protection from evil, etc. spells do not prevent mental control, they suppress it while the spell is in effect. An aboleth can still enslave someone even with an active protection spell, but so long as the spell is still running the victim ignores the effects. Given the short duration of the actual spell, this isn't terribly broken (IMO). With a ring of permanent protection from evil...Yikes!

All that said, you can Rule Zero the spell to fit your own campaign - so long as the players know what to expect from the spell, that's reasonable. Alternately, you can allow the spell to work as normal, but tell the player that his specific ring does not include that effect (for whatever reason).

 

[James McMurray]

Oh yeah, its definitely too powerful for afirst level spell. Like you said, its basically Mind Blank. Except that Mind Blank actually has the downside that you can no longer be helped by Mind Affecting stuff either (such as Bardic Song or the Heroism line of spells). Prot. / ___ does not have that problem, you get all the perks with none of the snags.

If it just said "possession or dominance caused by a possessor" that would be fine.

 

[Scion]

So you are confused why he is upset? That a players character has an item that has a very definite set of conditions, spelled out very clearly, and when you houseruled them to near uselessness without letting him know he was more than a little perturbed?

I have to let you know, I would be incredibly upset as well. Not only did it result in an item being reduced in power greatly (whether or not it should have been made in the first place is a completely seperate issue) without being told and it lead directly to the characters death.. yes.. these are the sort of things players should be told about, especially when it directly effects thier character in a very serious way.

Seems a lot like an old dm I had, he had decided to change poisons but didnt tell anyone.. we didnt even run into anyone useing poisons until decently high level, but I had a cure poison spell memorized anyway, just in case.. We finally ran into a battle with a guy who did poison.. round one of poison: make a save.. all is fine so far.. round two: I am still about 2 rounds from being able to get to the guy, but I figure it is ok, poison takes awhile to act..: make a save.. what?? round three: you still havent made a save? ok, make another. = dead pc.

In any event I would suggest you write out the stats of every magical item that comes anywhere near the pc's ahead of time. That way you will know exactly what it does and so will they.

Changing protection from evil into [Evil] is a pretty massive change, it largely negates its power.. making it so that all of its abilities only work against [Evil] would definately warrent an increase elsewhere.. possibly bigger boosts to saves and AC along with an hour per level duration. After all, it will do almost nothing ever, so might as well make it good. ([Evil] doesnt usually pop up until later levels, and they almost invariably have spell resistance or a way around the effect.. or the pc's will already have bonuses to their stuff greater than what the spell provides)

[Evil] and Evil and evil are all very different, but in d&d evil alignment is all that is needed for a protection from evil spell to work.. not the [Evil] descriptor Definately a huge change, something that should be mentioned.

 

[der_kluge]

My version:
As is, but with the caveat that it only works on creatures with the specific subtype [Law], [Chaos], [Evil], or [Good].
Plus, the second effect does not work on any alignment. It has the same restriction as the first and last effect.

THAT, my friends is much more reasonable version, and is the version I allowed in a permanent item.

I sent an e-mail to my player explaining that since my version differed slightly from the book, and that his sole reason for taking this was to prevent magic jars from ghosts (Creatures who are not [evil]) this ring no longer served the purpose he intended it for, and I would allow him to replace it with something else if he desired.