Protection from Evil curiosity

[MerakSpielman]

I'm still trying to figure out if Protection from Evil's "no physical contact" clause means evil summoned creatures/outsiders can no longer hit you with their natural attacks.

 

[James McMurray]

Not that powerful?

1.) AC bonus of +2 deflection versus evil creatures,

It is extremely useful given that the vast majority of foes fought in a heroic campaign are evil.

2.) +2 resistance bonus to saves versus effects generated by evil creatures,

It is extremely useful given that the vast majority of foes fought in a heroic campaign are evil.

3.) Stops charms, possessions and domination effects,

Thereby shutting down every single foe which uses these abilities. This includes aboleths, enchanters, etc. Against foes which have the ability but also have other abilities (such as vampires) it is still likelyto spell death, as they waste actions finding out that their powers are being negated by a simple first level spell.

4.) Stops most summoned creatures (though not of an alignment opposite the spell ... an evil wizard can still summon a hound archon to attack a good cleric protected by protection from evil).

Thereby kneecapping a method of combat (summoning) that is already extremely weak. Sure, that evil wizard an summon a hound archon, but he'll have to do so in combat, since he used his precombat spells to summon more fitting creatures. Given the full round casting time, I don't see him attempting to summon in battle very often, at least not unles he's got tons of non-summoned mooks to stop the party from kicking his btt while he tries to summon.

 

[Deadguy]

I'm still trying to figure out if Protection from Evil's "no physical contact" clause means evil summoned creatures/outsiders can no longer hit you with their natural attacks.

Since it shields any actual physical contact with the summoned entity, then logicaly any summoned creature that uses a part of itself to attack will be shielded away. Of course that doesn't answer the question of what happens when a summoned creature is given a mundane weapon to make the attacks with! Shielded against or not?

 

[Pielorinho]

Simple solution: if the player didn't know about this rule, and the ring is a houseruled item, simply say, "aha! That's how the spell works; apparently, that's not how the ring works. Your magic item is more mysterious than you thought, ain't it?"

Given that this is a very, very valuable piece of equipment, he ought not be looking it in the mouth, so to speak.

The simplest retcon here is to say that the ring doesn't exactly mirror the spell.

Daniel

 

[sdt]

You messed up (never admit it). Make it up to the player unless he/she was a jerk about it.

 

[Scion]

Simple solution: if the player didn't know about this rule, and the ring is a houseruled item, simply say, "aha! That's how the spell works; apparently, that's not how the ring works. Your magic item is more mysterious than you thought, ain't it?"

Of course if when it was identified it was a 'ring of protection from evil: as the spell' or just the first part, which implies the second part since no further detail was given (just has the name? must give the same bonuses as the spell). So at this point either it is an artifact (better have more powers than the minor ones listed) or the dm messed up in the identify, just about anything else is beyond reason

 

[Scion]

Not that powerful?

Actually jg did a pretty good job on this one, it is strong but not the end all and be all.

two of the bonuses will almost never matter, other spells and items will overlap with it. Cloak of resistance anyone? Ring of deflection? a plethora of spells and effects all grant the same named bonus. So those parts of the spell are fairly minimal, almost an afterthought much like Foresight and its little +2 insight.

1min/level (as the spell) doesnt shut down creatures with mind controlling abilities, they just take you over and your buddies, or just whoever isnt protected. If everyone has it then that was a big use of party resources and they deserve to be protected... all your big bad guy has to do is just wait around for a few minutes and then he can start dominating again. In the case of the ring this just means it is worth more than 2k, thats all. In my eyes at least anything that further prohibits save or die type effects is a Good Thing (tm).

The last part about summoned evil monsters is a good one, but dont these creatures get to try some SR or am I thinking incorrectly? Plus the creature can still attack other party memebers (so the threat is not removed, simply placed elsewhere) or the summoner could simply summon a neutral, good, or whatever version.

Of course the creatures he summoned might have other attacks than natural.. maybe a weapon, perhaps spells, whatever.. It limites one part of an ability, not very earth shattering. Plus as it is a fairly low level spell anyone who is worried about it can simply summon up the appropriate creature of the opposite alignment or neutral types.

Still, the item is worth a lot more than 2k, I dont know if 40k is too high or not though, but if it was set at 40k then I would hope no one would have problems with its abilities really. (finally a reason for targetted dispel on an item..lol.. you are dominated, dispel ring, 'take off your ring and throw it away'..mmm.. fun times with the big bad)

 

[Ottergame]

yes, you messed up, admit it and try to make it better. You nerfed a spell you aparently never read, and screwed over a player. Don't like the power of the ring? Tough, it's YOUR fault for allowing it in the game. Don't screw the player because you made a mistake.

 

[Zad]

I have to agree with some of the others. The spell does what it does. It does protection against mental domination (and I think your interpretation of what is "evil" is incorrect - it's not just the subtype, the spell references "alignment", not subtype.)

It is of course completely within your pervue to change the way the spell works, but the time to do that is before the PC is dominated and dies, not when it first comes up. The only way the rules - any set of rules - work is if everyone knows what they are up front.

 

[James McMurray]

two of the bonuses will almost never matter, other spells and items will overlap with it. Cloak of resistance anyone? Ring of deflection? a plethora of spells and effects all grant the same named bonus. So those parts of the spell are fairly minimal, almost an afterthought much like Foresight and its little +2 insight.

Actually those bonuss will almost always matter. When you've already got an item of +2 deflection and resistance, you tend to spend your money on something besides an item of +3 deflection or resistance.

1min/level (as the spell) doesnt shut down creatures with mind controlling abilities, they just take you over and your buddies, or just whoever isnt protected.

And they know this how? While they're experimenting with how to actually be effective against a first level spell, the arty is busy making them dead.

In my eyes at least anything that further prohibits save or die type effects is a Good Thing (tm).

Prot./evil has absolutely no benefit against save or die spells.

The last part about summoned evil monsters is a good one, but dont these creatures get to try some SR or am I thinking incorrectly? Plus the creature can still attack other party memebers (so the threat is not removed, simply placed elsewhere) or .

Yeah, SR can help, but very few summoned monsters will have the capability of overcoming the party spellcaster's penetration checks. Creatures can only attack other party members if those other party members are not also coered by prot./evil. At higher levels, that will almost never be the case if the party knows they are going up against a summoner.

the summoner could simply summon a neutral, good, or whatever version

Protection from evil protects against all non-good summoned creatures, not just evil ones. The other prot. / X spells only affect their opposed alignements (for some freaky reason).

Of course the creatures he summoned might have other attacks than natural.. maybe a weapon, perhaps spells, whatever.. It limites one part of an ability, not very earth shattering. Plus as it is a fairly low level spell anyone who is worried about it can simply summon up the appropriate creature of the opposite alignment or neutral types.

Again, neutral types are not an option, and oppositely aligned types are not an option for clerics. Check the summon monster lists. You'll find you have to get fairly high up to find anything with combat worthy spells or non-natural weapons when considering the CR of a spellcaster capable of casting that level of spell.

Still, the item is worth a lot more than 2k, I dont know if 40k is too high or not though, but if it was set at 40k then I would hope no one would have problems with its abilities really. (finally a reason for targetted dispel on an item..lol.. you are dominated, dispel ring, 'take off your ring and throw it away'..mmm.. fun times with the big bad)

Even removing the ability to create the item completely from the equation still leaves the spell itself as too powerful IMO.