Protection from Evil curiosity

[Sejs]

I mean, I thought that's what Mind Blank (an 8TH LEVEL SPELL!) was for?!

Protection from Evil works against 2 spells, more or less: Dominate and Magic Jar. Charm and Suggestion sit in a grey area where they're open to interpretation.

Mind Blank works against any spells that detect, influence or read emotions or thoughts up to and including wish and miracle. It also makes you immune to remote magical spying - arcane eye cannot see someone under mind blank. You cannot scry someone under mind blank. It makes you immune to the bulk of an entire category of spells and lasts for 24 hours.


Edit/Additional: oops, my bad. Two categories of spells.

 

[The Souljourner]

1.) It protects against anyone with an evil alignment. If they meant evil subtype, they would have said evil subtype. Evil on its own is an indication of alignment.

2.) Anyone sufficiently high enough to dominate you is also sufficiently high enough to dispel your piddly 1st level spell.

3.) They can just wait you out. Prot Evil is 1 min per level, Dominate is 1 day(!) per level and prot evil only stops the excercise of control, you're still under the effect of the spell.

-The Souljourner

 

[der_kluge]

So you are confused why he is upset? That a players character has an item that has a very definite set of conditions, spelled out very clearly, and when you houseruled them to near uselessness without letting him know he was more than a little perturbed?

I have to let you know, I would be incredibly upset as well. Not only did it result in an item being reduced in power greatly (whether or not it should have been made in the first place is a completely seperate issue) without being told and it lead directly to the characters death.. yes.. these are the sort of things players should be told about, especially when it directly effects thier character in a very serious way.

Just so that we're clear here, I didn't reduce it's power on purpose. I did not understand that spell as I thought. I believed the properties of the spell only applied to creatures listed in the name of the spell. Protection from evil pretty much summed it up for me quite nicely. The spell isn't called "protection from evil, except for the second property which works against anyone and everything". So, it's not like I nerfed it knowingly. It wasn't until a full 2 and a half months later that this player approached me with this bit of knowledge. Did I mentioned that this character left the party behind, and used Blink and Fly to move into a flooded section of dungeon BY HIMSELF? Technically, I didn't even kill him. The aboleth dominated him, and there he remained, where his Blink wore off (he was breathing on the ethereal plane), and he drowned due to that spell's short duration.

And this party started at 9th level. So, fighting creatures with an [evil] subtype is definitely not uncommon. They haven't fought any yet that I'm aware of, but eventually they will fight a lot. So, having a ring with +2 AC/Saves against demons isn't a piece of crap in my book.

 

[Voadam]

Long story short, the Sorcerer in my game has a ring with a permanent Prot. from Evil in it. Now, you may think I'm insane for allowing this, but I did allow it.

That said, this particular character died after drowning in a flooded section of a dungeon after he was dominated by an Aboleth. This event happened two months ago, and the player continues to feel like he's been ripped off from this encounter.

His argument is that the Prot. from evil spell (this is where the curiosity comes into play here) has 3 effects. The first and third specifically state "this effect works against evil creatures". These effects are the +2 AC/Saves, and the prohibition against evil summoned creatures from touching you, essentially.

Now, my definition of evil, in terms of what this spell will actually prevent is anything with the [EVIL] subtype. So, if you've got a guy that likes killing little kids and eating them. That's definitely sick and twisted, but it's not [EVIL] per the subtype, and that guy would be unaffected by this spell. So, that places some reasonable limits on that spell.

But, the kicker is, and this is what my player pointed out to me last week, and what is *still* causing him heartburn after dying 2.5 months ago. (he was raised, anyway)

The second effect prevents mental control, including Dominate Person (which is what the Aboleth did), and a few other things. The last sentence of this effect boggles the mind. (paraphrasing) "This effect works regardless of alignment"

So, a 1st level spell that completely, and utterly blocks all forms of mental domination from, you got it, ANYONE. I told him that I didn't agree with that, and wouldn't allow that effect to work, and my ruling still stood. Because, it makes no sense that someone could cast protection from EVIL and prevent the good high priest of the church of Tyr from casting a dominate person on you.

Dumb. DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB.

I mean, jeez, that's like the most powerful 1st level spell - EVER. If a GM allowed a loose interpretation, it would work against anyone with an evil alignment, and would prevent -anyone- from mentally dominating you. I mean, I thought that's what Mind Blank (an 8TH LEVEL SPELL!) was for?!

Good lord, WoTC.

When did you tell the player about these changes to the spell? If it was after the Aboleth dominated him then I'd say poor DMing switcheroo that killed the PC and he is reasonably annoyed by such an action.

You had never fully read the spell before in any of its incarnations?

In prior editions it used to only be the +2 saves that were evil dependant, it used to keep out all summoned creatures (plus ghouls) and protect against domination and possession.

The oddity I thought you were going to question is the difference in summoned coverage between prot from good and prot from evil, they are not merely inverses. Prot from evil prevents all except good. Prot from good only prevents good.

 

[Ferret]

Dominate isn't innately evil, but it always evil to take control of someone.

 

[Voadam]

Just so that we're clear here, I didn't reduce it's power on purpose. I did not understand that spell as I thought. I believed the properties of the spell only applied to creatures listed in the name of the spell. Protection from evil pretty much summed it up for me quite nicely. The spell isn't called "protection from evil, except for the second property which works against anyone and everything". So, it's not like I nerfed it knowingly. It wasn't until a full 2 and a half months later that this player approached me with this bit of knowledge. Did I mentioned that this character left the party behind, and used Blink and Fly to move into a flooded section of dungeon BY HIMSELF? Technically, I didn't even kill him. The aboleth dominated him, and there he remained, where his Blink wore off (he was breathing on the ethereal plane), and he drowned due to that spell's short duration.

And this party started at 9th level. So, fighting creatures with an [evil] subtype is definitely not uncommon. They haven't fought any yet that I'm aware of, but eventually they will fight a lot. So, having a ring with +2 AC/Saves against demons isn't a piece of crap in my book.

So in your game the 1st level spell is only useful for high level encounters?

As an item it is useful, as a spell it is pretty poor.

 

[der_kluge]

So in your game the 1st level spell is only useful for high level encounters?

As an item it is useful, as a spell it is pretty poor.

Well, it is a 1st level spell after all.

I would consider that another version, perhaps (protection from undead) would be appropriate, and could do all the listed things versus undead. As it is, I believe prot. from evil is far too powerful as a 1st level spell.

 

[jgsugden]

Uhhhh ... a permanent ring of protection is not *that* powerful. I'd place a value on it at about 40,000 GP.

What do you really get from it?

1.) AC bonus of +2 deflection versus evil creatures,
2.) +2 resistance bonus to saves versus effects generated by evil creatures,
3.) Stops charms, possessions and domination effects,
4.) Stops most summoned creatures (though not of an alignment opposite the spell ... an evil wizard can still summon a hound archon to attack a good cleric protected by protection from evil).

1 & 2 are handy, but they are limited to certain foes. Against many foes, they're useless. Also, they tend to be redundant. People don't want a 'part time' deflection or resistance bonus, they want full time protection. As a result, they'll often seek out other sources for these bonuses. In the end, I'd rather have a +1 resistance bonus and a +1 deflection bonus that worked all the time than a set of +2 bonuses thatwork only against evil.

Charm, possession and domination are not terribly common. PCs may go many levels without seeing one of these effects. Even when they do, they get a saving throw. This protection only has an effect on the game in those rare circumstances when these effects pop up and when the saving throw is failed. In a few select campaigns, such as one where the PCs are hunting vampires, this ability is increased in value, but in most, it is a minor issue at best.

Summoned creatures are an odd issue to consider in this context. Some DMs never use them. Other DMs use them with a majority of their spellcasters. In some games, a PC may face summoned creatures four or five times during the 13 or so encounters it is supposed to require to level up. The value of this ring's third ability changes dramatically depending upon which style of game is used, but in a game where roughly one set of summoned monsters per character level is faced, this nifty ability is useful, but not overpowering. The summoned monsters are rarely more than anannoyance that makes it difficult to get to the real threat, the summoner.

All in all, a nice ability, but nothing to get too upset about.

As for denying your PC all the benefits of the ring ... just tell him to get it identified again. Then he'll find out that he was mistaken ... it only grants *part* of the benefits of a protection from evil spell.

 

[the Jester]

I think you definitely nerfed it on him, and he has a right to be upset. As a dm, I try to look over any magic items a pc wants to make or whatever with a very suspicious eye and if I miss something I just kinda suck it up unless it's a genuine game-breaker, which I don't think PfE is by any means. But YMMV.

Anyway, I'd say that in the future you should try to look new items over very carefully before you allow them at all.

 

[James McMurray]

his sole reason for taking this was to prevent magic jars from ghosts

The Ghostwalk campaign has a protection from ghosts (or smething like that) spell that does exactly that.

2.) Anyone sufficiently high enough to dominate you is also sufficiently high enough to dispel your piddly 1st level spell.

Unless of course they don't have access to Dispel Magic. Perhaps they are a creature with a mind control (Su) ability, and not actually a spellcaster using the dominate spell. An aboleh fits neatly into this category.

"It can be dispelled" has never been nor ever will be a reason for a spell to be considered balanced.