Psionics: Balance and Integration

[Seeten]

My level 13 Wizard can do things that make my level 10 Psion salivate, and that the level 10 Psion will never be able to do at level 13, either.

For that matter, a Psion is a pushover compared to a Druid, or a Cleric. What is the problem again?

Your lousy summons are better than my lousy summons! Um?

Your DD has scaling DCs!! Um, I have more spells of level 3 than you have total powers. I have metamagic too, so I can cast level 3 fireballs, level 4 fell weakening fireballs, level 5 empowered fireballs, level 6 fell animating fireballs. You can do what? 10d6 dmg to 5 guys? for a ton of pp? Wow.

You have a Discipline that gives you cool powerz? You mean a Psion cant fly without spending a feat on expanding knowledge or being a "Travel" Psion? I can fly with level 2 Alter Self. It lasts a good while, too. Most good powers are discipline specific. You cant cross disciplines. I am forbidden from only 2 schools of magic, not 5/6ths like a Psion.

I think the big picture is totally getting lost here. Is a Psion better than a Fighter? Yes. Is he better than a Wizard? I think not.

 

[Thanee]

My level 13 Wizard can do things that make my level 10 Psion salivate, and that the level 10 Psion will never be able to do at level 13, either.

If that wasn't the case, it would be utterly ridiculous.

Of course, both classes can (and should be able to) do things the other cannot.

And of course Wizards have a broader spell knowledge... that's the Wizard's primary advantage. But preparation is a huge limitation.

It's - as you said - the whole picture, which should be considered. And there I'm still totally convinced, that the Psion will always be better than the Wizard (on average, of course). While it's easy to construct situations, where the Psion will totally lose out (and vice versa), I doubt that those will happen so often, realistically, unless the DM specifically stresses them to limit the Psion.

But that is also something, which depends a lot on campaign and playing style I guess. In our games, a Sorcerer is pretty much equal to a Wizard all things considered, since spontaneous casting gives the huge advantage it should give. If that does not apply, I can see Wizards gaining a lot of power (also compared to Psions, of course).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Seeten]

Preparation isnt just a huge limitation, it can be a huge advantage also. If I know ahead of time what I face, and I usually do(I can scry, I have clairaudience/voyance, I have a whole range of divination, and I investigate) I can be prepared with specific spells for almost anything. I can also be prepared for multiple fights in a single day if I think thats going to happen.(It often does.) If I need to, I can set my guards to watch me(My guards are ghouls and shadows, did I mention I am a pale master?) and study up a new spell or spells for whatever the situation dictates with a few minutes.)

Psions can expend their whole load in one encounter and be dry for the next, they can save pp and do less than they could have, and they can run into encounters they just dont have a power for. I have never run across a situation with my wizard that I couldnt have covered if I had time to prepare. On my psion, there are times when no matter what, I dont have a power to do it/deal with it/etc.

I'd argue that a wizards spellbook is better than 23 specific powers, even customizable ones, and that the level of power a Wizard brings to bear causes more DM fudging than Psion. I am unconvinced by the anecdotal evidence that psions are better than ANY of the 4 pure casters, and I am convinced by my own experiences playing both that if you want pure power, nothing beats a wizard save a wild armored twinked out Druid.

Yet nobody complains about the Wizard? If you can balance an adventure for a Wizard, you can balance it for a Psion.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the big picture is totally getting lost here. Is a Psion better than a Fighter? Yes. Is he better than a Wizard? I think not.

I think the Psion is slightly better than the Wizard at real low levels (say 1 to 2). But after that, the versatility of the Wizard starts taking over (e.g. Mirror Image and Invisibility keeps him alive to fight another day, a Psion has nothing to compare with that).

The game is not just about offense (which psions do better in several areas), it's also about staying alive. The only really good low level stay alive power (outside the standard Inertial Armor/Force Screen that Wizards have inferior versions of) that Psions have is Vigor.

Some people do not consider it important, but I consider it crucial that Psions have a tough time going Invisible or Flying (although they can use the discipline specialized Astral Construct or Ectoplasmic Form or Psionic Fly, it is usually higher level and usually takes a feat to acquire it). Levitate just does not cut it when attempting to get away from most opponents who have spells or ranged attacks.


Also, another balancing factor that many people who think Psions are better tend to ignore or forget is that many psionic powers are close range. If you are close enough to hit your opponents with close range powers, they are close enough to hit you with virtually anything.

I listed the range of the psionic powers and it came out:

133 Personal or Range 0 or Touch
84 Close or Less
1 50 feet
4 60 feet
40 Medium
8 Long
4 Unlimited
2 Variable

79% or almost 4 powers out of 5 have a range of Close or Less. Even if you drop the Personal/Range 0/Touch powers from the list, Close or Less takes up 59% or almost 3 out of 5 Ranged powers.

The easiest way to take out a Psion is from medium range where many of his offensive options are not available.

 

[the Jester]

The thing that I have personally found most problematic about 3.5 psionics is the ability to pick and choose your energy type with your powers. That lets you always hit a monster in its weak spot (assuming you can recognize its weak spot).

Otherwise, I have found 3.5 psionics to be fairly well balanced. Though in my epic game, one of the epic psionic characters has definitely made me wonder about psionic lion's charge.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The thing that I have personally found most problematic about 3.5 psionics is the ability to pick and choose your energy type with your powers. That lets you always hit a monster in its weak spot (assuming you can recognize its weak spot).

Otherwise, I have found 3.5 psionics to be fairly well balanced. Though in my epic game, one of the epic psionic characters has definitely made me wonder about psionic lion's charge.

Of course, at epic levels, there's a feat they can buy that lets them do the same thing at will

 

[KarinsDad]

The thing that I have personally found most problematic about 3.5 psionics is the ability to pick and choose your energy type with your powers. That lets you always hit a monster in its weak spot (assuming you can recognize its weak spot).

I think this is much more potent sounding than it actually is.

Most creatures do not have any form of energy resistance or immunity.

Those that do (like demons and devils) often have multiple energy resistances anyway. So, if a character does not know the creature's weakness, it's a crap shoot even for a Psion.

I suspect that less than 20% of the creatures have some form of energy resistance where this would matter.

Plus, very few creatures are immune to sonics. Virtually none. A Wizard or Sorcerer can overcome most of this deficit with the feat Energy Substitution: Sonics and can cast (for example) all of their fire spells as sonics spells if so desired.

Instead of Produce Flame or Fireball or Scorching Ray, it is suddenly Produce Sonics or SonicBall or Noisy Ray. And, sonic attacks are not half damage against objects like Fire or Electricity.

 

[Thanee]

A Wizard or Sorcerer can overcome most of this deficit with the feat Energy Substitution: Sonics.

Not in 3.5 - but that's a general problem with Psionics, they are more 3.25 than 3.5, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bront]

So, the general issue with Psionic balance seems to be integration fully, more than simply being overpowered. With the other classes, they're built with balance in the system, and since most of us have been playing for a while, we know how to balance out powers with encounters. Psionics are newer, so it looks like that's still being worked out.

A wizard who has time to prep for every encounter is perhaps the most powerfull class out there because of their flexibility. A wizard who can never prepare for an encounter is much weaker. It's the balance that makes it playable.

And yes, there are some damage balance issues, but I'd have to actualy play with them to see how they work out (Cold effectively negating evasion/improved evasion worrys me a bit). I've noted that there are Mind Effecting tagged on many things, which is a balancing act. And of course range and such.

I'm hoping my players will take the high RP road anyway (which they usually do) and not uber-min/max the character, which also helps lend balance to everything as well. An uber-tweeked character can be unbalancing in any campaign.

 

[Bront]

(about Energy Substitution: Psionics) Not in 3.5 - but that's a general problem with Psionics, they are more 3.25 than 3.5, really.

Bye
Thanee

I wondered about that feat. Though I don't have, nore have looked at any of the Complete supliments yet.

And that's the worry about psionics. Spells were stipped of some power or capped, seems like they weren't stripped equally.