Psionics: Balance and Integration

[Nail]

No doubt about it. Psions at high levels can take opponents out with Ego Whip (or even possibly starting at 7th level as a 3+ round strategy). But, you have to survive the low to mid levels and there, Sorcerers have a major edge in this department.

Just as an aside: Why is this "balanced"?

Why is it balanced to be weak levels 1 - 8 and strong to over-whelming levels 11 - 20?

Why can't it be (reasonably) balanced throughout?

 

[KarinsDad]

Huh. I had not noticed that "extra save" in there......that makes Hold Person even worse! (BTW: Why are you using it as a counter example to the Psion's "uber-ness"?)

Opps. For some reason, I was thinking that a CDG was a full round action that did not get resolved until your next action. I wonder where that snuck into our game from.

In any case, the reason I used the Cleric example was to illustrate that a 3rd level Cleric can be MUCH more uber than a 3rd level Psion with respect to neutralizing a single foe and then killing him. It takes one spell as compared to 2 to 5 manifestations of a power.

Heightened Hold Person at higher level can be huge if your opponent is a Fighter type without Spell Resistance.

So, the Cleric has a mechanism to wipe out a close range single opponent that is often better than various Empowered Ego Whips until real high level.

But, nobody is saying that the Cleric is unbalanced.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just as an aside: Why is this "balanced"?

Why is it balanced to be weak levels 1 - 8 and strong to over-whelming levels 11 - 20?

Why can't it be (reasonably) balanced throughout?

Why is it balanced that Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and Warlocks can fight all day long for less damage per attack and less damage per round, but a Wizard or Sorcerer can wipe every opponent off the board in two rounds at high level?

Why is it balanced that Clerics can clear the room of undead with a single Turn attempt?

Well, because that is the way it is.

The Sorcerer is better at this from 1st to 12th level and can do it twice as often at most levels, the Psion starts getting better at 13th level but cannot do it as often. That's not unbalanced.

 

[Thanee]

With Restoration available by the time it becomes even a moderate issue, not very in the large scheme of things.

Restoration is a pretty high cost (esp. since it also needs costly components) compared to nothing.

Also the RoE can simply be dispelled, while the EW is instantaneous and can only be restored. A potion of lesser restoration automatically completely negates RoE, while it only partially helps against the Cha damage suffered.

Just like Sorcerers and Wizards (and to a lesser extend Bards and Druids) with often moderate to low Strength and abysmal touch ACs are also a rather good target for Ray of Enfeeblement. Course, dropping the Fighter or Barbarian down to Str 10 or lower is nothing to sneeze about either.

Absolutely, tho Str 1 is not automatically prone, you need to carry quite a bit of equipment (more than 20 lb.), which once you have a Handy Haversack won't be likely to happen. The effect of the spell is then rather small, actually.

And at high level, both Empowered Ego Whip and Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement tend to be good against almost everyone.

Yep.

Let's do a comparison from first level on up, ...

Sorry, but that comparison doesn't really say much.

No doubt about it. Psions at high levels can take opponents out with Ego Whip (or even possibly starting at 7th level as a 3+ round strategy). But, you have to survive the low to mid levels and there, Sorcerers have a major edge in this department.

How exactly? Or did you mean only the RoE specifically?

take away an enemy Wizard's strength on round one where his spellbooks in his backpack alone pull him prone to the ground, put up a circular Wall of Fire with the heat on the inside on round two. That will mess up most's Wizard's day. A Sorcerer can do this at 8th level (he can get most Wizards prone at level 6 unless they are carrying nothing and even then, a 1 Str Wizard is meat for a grapple).

About the same as a Str 10 Wizard, actually.

And even if you go prone, you can still cast spells unhindered, even though it's certainly not the best position to fight (you are a bit easier hit in melee). ^^

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

That's not unbalanced.

That is exactly the point where I think it is unbalanced, actually.

The Psion should compare to a Fighter in the same way as a Sorcerer does.

Because Psion and Sorcerer are highly similar concepts overall.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

In any case, the reason I used the Cleric example was to illustrate that a 3rd level Cleric can be MUCH more uber than a 3rd level Psion with respect to neutralizing a single foe and then killing him. It takes one spell as compared to 2 to 5 manifestations of a power.

The spell Hold Person is wussy. Not really worth it, frankly.

Clr 3, Wis 18, casts Hold Person on an enemy Ftr 1 (CR 1).

Will Save DC 16, Ftr Will save +0

Ftr saves 25% of the time......but he gets to try to save twice before the cleric can CdG him. Thus the Ftr saves ~44% of the time. Hardly a sure thing.....not bad, but plenty of chances for the Ftr to become unstuck.

And all of this is at 1st level, where the chances of this working should be at its peak.

Mainwhile, that Psi 3 is doing ability damage, which can't be "shrugged off". Heck, the Psi 3 could leave and come back tomorrow (barring magical restoration).

 

[KarinsDad]

Absolutely, tho Str 1 is not automatically prone, you need to carry quite a bit of equipment (more than 20 lb.), which once you have a Handy Haversack won't be likely to happen. The effect of the spell is then rather small, actually.

All of your PCs and NPCs carry around Handy Haversack's???

What an interesting game you play in.

 

[KarinsDad]

The spell Hold Person is wussy. Not really worth it, frankly.

Clr 3, Wis 18, casts Hold Person on an enemy Ftr 1 (CR 1).

Will Save DC 16, Ftr Will save +0

Ftr saves 25% of the time......but he gets to try to save twice before the cleric can CdG him. Thus the Ftr saves ~44% of the time. Hardly a sure thing.....not bad, but plenty of chances for the Ftr to become unstuck.

And all of this is at 1st level, where the chances of this working should be at its peak.

Not really THAT wussy.

Have your Cleric cast it and your Barbarian do the CDG. One save. And with Medium range, the Cleric can be some distance off and pick off an opponent 3 rounds out of every 4 with the assistance of the party fighter types (1 round in 4 or so, the opponent saves).

Also, it can be Heightened. 17th level Cleric with 20 Wisdom naturally and a +6 Wisdom item (not that rare at that level) and the DC is 27.

The chances of a low Will save character making the save, even with a +5 Cloak of resistance is something like 20%-30% depending on Wisdom stat. Without a lot of magical protection, this percentage drops.

In our game, most of the monsters and NPCs are not walking around with a boatload of potent magical saving throw items (otherwise, the PCs would get them all of the time). Easy pickings except at higher levels when spell resistance starts coming into the picture.


It's quick, it's easy, and as a party tactic, it works pretty darn well.

 

[Thanee]

All of your PCs and NPCs carry around Handy Haversack's???

Most do.

What an interesting game you play in.

Oh, absolutely!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

It's quick, it's easy, and as a party tactic, it works pretty darn well.

Two points:
#1) We were discussing mano-a-mano, Clr vs Psi. If the Clr requires another party member to finish the target off, well.....that's not exactly a straight comparison, is it?

#2) Raising the DC of this 2nd level spell is possible....and I've yet to see a PC try. (The Heighten Spell feat? Does anyone really have this on their sheet? ) As you continue to advance in levels, finding humanoid opponents who will miss this save more often than not becomes increasingly challenging.