Psionics: Balance and Integration

[Rystil Arden]

To add to the Ego Whip discussion: The main problem with Ego Whip is that anyone who cares about the damage is probably going to save, unless you are planning on iterating it enough tims to knock them out. Bards, Warmages, Clerics, all have good Will saves, so Paladins are your best best because at least their supernaturally high saves in every area will slowly start plummeting as you eat their charisma. Nobody else cares if you take away charisma unless you get it to 0, in which case they would be rather irate, if they still had a sense of self.

 

[Nail]

On the other hand, a Cleric could back up 5 foot from an opponent, cast Hold Person, and then back 5 foot and coup de grace him. This is successful if only 3 saves are missed and the opponent could also be attacked by other allies of the Cleric while helpless..

After two failed Will saves. Hold Person is not a particularly powerful spell.

It seems that most of your experience comes from low level psions (1 - 6th). I'll grant that the differences between psions and arcanists are not great at that range.

Try 10 - 14 level. (We currently have a Psi 14.)

...oh wait. You were just saying all of the things you'd be doing at that level. Did I hear you mention Psychic Reformation? Wasn't I just talking about that power a page or so ago?

 

[Nail]

To add to the Ego Whip discussion: ...

We haven't had our Psi 14 use Ego Whip. He's had better methods of destroying bad guys.


.....my poor....poor......bad guys!!!!

 

[Nail]

Psions do not have Protection From Evil.

True.

You asked about mechanical mis-matches. I'm pointing them out.

 

[Thanee]

To add to the Ego Whip discussion: The main problem with Ego Whip is that anyone who cares about the damage is probably going to save, unless you are planning on iterating it enough tims to knock them out. Bards, Warmages, Clerics, all have good Will saves, so Paladins are your best best because at least their supernaturally high saves in every area will slowly start plummeting as you eat their charisma. Nobody else cares if you take away charisma unless you get it to 0, in which case they would be rather irate, if they still had a sense of self.

One thing is, that even a successful save will result in loss of spell slots and weaken their spell DCs, turnings, or whatever else is dependant on Charisma. Using it against Paladins to gradually lower their saves is a good idea, tho.

And Barbarians, Fighters or Rogues with often moderate to low Charisma and abysmal Will saves are also a rather good target for Ego Whip.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

After two failed Will saves. Hold Person is not a particularly powerful spell.

Incorrect. Three failed saves.

1) Cleric casts Hold Person. Opponent attempts to save.
2) Opponent's turn. Opponent attempts to save.
3) Cleric steps in and starts coup de grace.
4) Opponent's turn. Opponent attempts to save.
5) Cleric finishes coup de grace at the beginning of his action.

If the opponent is successful at the third save, he is no longer helpless and the coup de grace is interrupted.

It seems that most of your experience comes from low level psions (1 - 6th). I'll grant that the differences between psions and arcanists are not great at that range.

Try 10 - 14 level. (We currently have a Psi 14.)

I haven't run quite that high.

But, I ran as DM a Monk 1/Psion 8 Inspired (which made her more kick butt) who would Dominate additional allies along with her sidekick Warmage 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2 Inspired.

They kicked the party's butt the first time out, but took off when they ran low on PP and spells respectively.

The second time, the party wiped them out in 4 rounds (she Dimension Doored away to come back another day) once they were used to their tricks.


Psions are cool, but they tend to be few trick ponies.

And Schism notwithstanding, they still only get one major power off per round, just like Sorcerers.

 

[Thanee]

CdG ist a Full-Round Action not an action that requires one full round, IIRC.

So 4) and 5) do not happen. If the opponent did not save at step 2), then the cleric can CdG at step 3), which happens immediately.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

Incorrect. Three failed saves.

Huh. I had not noticed that "extra save" in there......that makes Hold Person even worse! (BTW: Why are you using it as a counter example to the Psion's "uber-ness"?)

For those of you who, like me, didn't realize this:

Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.

So the subject gets the initial save on the cleric's turn, when he casts the spell, then another save on his own turn (which would be before the cleric's next turn.)

I guess I always thought the saves only happen on the clerics turn. Whoops.

They kicked the party's butt the first time out, but took off when they ran low on PP and spells respectively.

The second time, the party wiped them out in 4 rounds (she Dimension Doored away to come back another day) once they were used to their tricks.

Psions are cool, but they tend to be few trick ponies.

(nods) I'm learning this as I DM the higher level psion. Still, the "few-trick" pony can pack quite a wallop, compared to the other PCs.

I suspect there's a real "sweet spot" for psions between levels 11 and 14. Other DM/player experiences???

 

[Thanee]

Psions are cool, but they tend to be few trick ponies.

That is definitely true, but not so much of a difference to the Sorcerer, who also has a fixed and highly limited spell selection.

And Schism notwithstanding, they still only get one major power off per round, just like Sorcerers.

Yep, only one of the highest level (or augmented to that level), but there are a few, which are *significant* even if quickened or schismed (), like Psionic Dispel or Metamorphosis.

A free (concerning actions) Metamorphosis with Metamorphic Transfer and a full action left can do some really nasty stuff. And a Dispel without having to cut down the fire is also not to be underestimated.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

CdG ist a Full-Round Action not an action that requires one full round, IIRC.

SRD: "Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent...."

SRD: "Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions..."

IOW, Thanee's right. Only two saves.

So I was right, originally...but for the wrong reasons. ah well.