Psionics: Balance and Integration

[Henry]

Name one monster in the MM, MMII, or MMIII with Dispel Ectoplasm, for example.

I can name a BUNCH with Dispel Magic. Now, if using the "Psi is different", as the book notes, it's beholden to the DM for altering creatures properly to reflect this where needed.

 

[KarinsDad]

While I am not familiar with that spell, DR applies against all physical damage, meaning that spells that do physical damage and not elemental (Such as part of Ice Storm) are counted against DR.

Not to my knowledge:


"Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."


Although I agree with you that spells that do physical damage should be affected by damage reduction, I am unaware of a rule that supports that position.

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course, having no support in the core books is also a concern. Name one monster in the MM, MMII, or MMIII with Dispel Ectoplasm, for example.

The central conceptual problem is psionics overlap with arcane magic. They are virtually the same, yet they have no mechanical counters for each other. In most campaigns, even with the "transparency" clause, this means the psion has the advantage over the arcanist.

Not significantly.

Show a few examples where mechanicals counters do not affect both.

It doesn't matter that creatures do not have Dispel Ectoplasm, some have Dispel Magic and in the same ratio as always. Just as effective when magic = psionics against both sides.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Of course, having no support in the core books is also a concern. Name one monster in the MM, MMII, or MMIII with Dispel Ectoplasm, for example.

I haven't picked up MMIII, but MMII had a number of psionic creatures, such as the gem dragons, and included info for using either the psionic handbook or not.

More recently Complete Adventurer contained a psionic prestiege class. Not nearly as much integration as magic, but not completely gone.

 

[two]

It's been mentioned

One thing that's been mentioned about psionics, which is rather a subtle point in all of its ramifications, is the "1-2 fight a day power point full force everything all out crazy attack" scenarios.

Meaning, if any psionicist is pretty sure there is only going to be 1 or two fights in a given day, they have the option (not that they always will use it, mind you) to substantially increase their damage output, quickly ending what might be difficult or long-running battles.

Now, this is not usually a big deal. If they are out of power points after 2 battles, and there are 2 to go -- tough. They are screwed.

Point is, however -- it's kind of tough on the GM to always insure this sort of thing. In fact, it's near impossible.

If you are in a dungeon setting -- it's easy. 3-4 fights are guaranteed pretty much before a rest. Psionic types are balanced.

If you are travelling between the Great Chasm of Cottage Cheese and the Pit of Tarry Lung Excretions, knowing it's a 10 day ride, and you come across a cantankerous Wyvryn on day 4, it's 99% just a random encounter. The PC's know they just stumbled across the beast. So the psionicist uses 85% of his/her power points in the one battle -- as quickly as possible. There is perhaps a 1% chance for another battle that day, nearly none for 2-3 more battles (barring a trap on the GM's part).

Most campaigns I have been in are reasonably "realistic" in this way. If you are at sea, and attacked by a pirate, it's likely that's the only pirate attack you are gonna get that day. I mean, how many pirate ships are cruising the coastline, after all? Is the GM going to stagger 3-4 pirate attacks throughout the day in order to insure the psionic character suffers for using power points quickly? The GM certainly COULD. At a price. It's just hard to justify a lot of the time, in the game world.

Looking back on it, I'd say a good 75% of my battles in the last year were of the 1-2 in a day variety. And it was pretty clear they were going to be the only battles that day, barring a very unexpected incident.

This isn't a big deal at all with magic-using PC's. They can't increase their power output quickly and freely.

Psionic-types can, and do.

It's a rather "hidden" advantage that I would be wary of. It might force you, as a GM, to change the way you set up encounters and play the game.

If you do a lot of "one big battle a day" encounters -- the psionicists are going to look, feel, and act very powerful.

It's strange...adding a single psionic PC's to a non-psionic party might well cause a major shift in the way you play the game and set up encounters.

I can't think of another PC class that can have such a big overall effect.

[personally, I don't like to be handicapped by these sort of restrictions. there are a lot of situations where a single attack in a day is the most realistic and sensible setup. I don't want to drop them because I'm worried about the power-point using psionic types]

 

[Nail]

Show a few examples where mechanicals counters do not affect both.

Prot/Evil vs Astral Constructs is a particular sore spot. Dispel Magic is not equivalent to Dismiss Ectoplasm (one is automatic, the other....), Dimensional Slide can be a Move action (no move action spells!), etc.

 

[Nail]

...it's kind of tough on the GM to always insure this sort of thing. In fact, it's near impossible.

If you are in a dungeon setting -- it's easy. 3-4 fights are guaranteed pretty much before a rest. Psionic types are balanced.

Until teleport-like powers are avialable. Then the PCs can really control the pacing. Wanna rest? No prob; leave and come back tomorrow.

"Oh, but a clever DM will use that tactic against them, and have the bad guys set traps, yada, yada, yada...."

Uh-huh. Try that session after session, and see how far you get, Mr. Clever DM, sir.

The players can set the pacing. And with psionic PCs, there's even a better reason to do so.

 

[KarinsDad]

Prot/Evil vs Astral Constructs is a particular sore spot. Dispel Magic is not equivalent to Dismiss Ectoplasm (one is automatic, the other....), Dimensional Slide can be a Move action (no move action spells!), etc.

Psions do not have Protection From Evil.

So, they have no protection from either Summoned Creatures or Astral Constructs.

Clerics and Wizards, on the other hand, at least have protection from Summoned Creatures.

Sounds like the Psion is at the disadvantage, not the Clerics and Wizards.

 

[KarinsDad]

This isn't a big deal at all with magic-using PC's. They can't increase their power output quickly and freely.

Psionic-types can, and do.

It's a rather "hidden" advantage that I would be wary of. It might force you, as a GM, to change the way you set up encounters and play the game.

If you do a lot of "one big battle a day" encounters -- the psionicists are going to look, feel, and act very powerful.

Not convincing.

My 6th level Psion has 46 PP (she has 2 extra ones due to race). That means that she can throw 7-9 powers in the 5-6 PP range.

Considering that she does not go anywhere without Inertial Armor up which is typically 5 points for the AC 16 version and it lasts for 6 hours, usually she uses up 10 to 20 points a day on that alone depending on the day (AC is crucial for survival in DND).

Now, she is down to a maximum of 41 PP, that is if she gets caught in the morning with an encounter. If caught in the late afternoon, she is often down to 36 points or 6-7 max powers.

Our 6th level Warmage has 4 max level spells, 6 max level -1, 7 max level - 2, and 6 max level - 3 spells.

This sounds pretty darn close. If she goes full bore, she is done in 7 or 8 rounds (9 at most if she put up a wimpy Inertial Armor and only does 5 PP powers, not 6 PP ones). It takes 10 rounds for him to go through his top two levels of spells.

6th level Sorcerer, 5 rounds to go through top two levels of spells.

6th level Wizard, 7 rounds to go through top two levels of spells.

6th level Specialized Wizard, 9 rounds to go through top two levels of spells.

6th level Druid, 7 rounds to go through top two levels of spells.

6th level Cleric, 9 rounds to go through top two levels of spells.

Plus, all of these classes still have their zeroth and first level spells remaining. And, more importantly, most of their attack spells (and many other types of spells) automatically scale with level whereas the Psion's powers are scaled only with Power Points. That means that even their low level spells are "at their best" at all times.

6th level Warlock, infinite number of rounds to go through his spells.


I think you are seeing an advantage where one does not significantly exist.

Example: A 7th level Sorcerer (or Wizard) casting a first level Ray of Enfeeblement does 4-9 points of Strength penalty with no save, but needs a ranged touch attack. A 7th level Psion with Ego Whip does 2-8 points of Charisma damage if the save is not made, but it costs her 7 PP. For her, it is a max PP power. For him, it is a low level spell. One uses a first level spell, the other uses a second level power and augments it to maximum PP for less damage in a less useful ability score.

His lower level spell was still as good or better than her going full bore with a higher level power.

He can Empower his Ray of Enfeeblement as a third level spell (i.e. max level for him) and it does 6-13 points. She can Empower hers as well, but it costs 5 PP and does 1-6 points in that case (since she cannot Empower beyond 4 PP). Even at 9th level, Empowering Ego Whip only brings it up to 3-12 points, still less than his third level spell at 9 PP.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Incidentally KarinsDad, some psion-to-psion advice: If you can pick up Overchannel, you might be able to save yourself PsPs on the number of times you need to refresh the long-duration buffs, since it raises your caster level and thus the duration whether or not you choose to pay the extra PsP for the augmented power.