Psionics: Balance and Integration

Thanee said:
You mean "combat oriented" as in physical combat? Multiclassed, too?

Well, ok, that's a bit of a different story then. :)

I was mainly talking about Psions, that actually use psionics directly.

Again, it depends. A single class Shaper who mostly manifests constructs might not focus on metapsionic or other feats that need a psionic focus.

A single class Egoist who decides to waltz in and fight Metamorphosized might not focus on metapsionic or other feats that need a psionic focus. In fact, my current Egoist might get rid of Psionic Meditation at 10th level when she uses Psychic Reformation to change herself in preparation of the Slayer PrC. And, she did not take it until 5th level, so there were four levels when she did not have it.

Sure, a Kinetist needs his psionic focus for all types of things, but the percentage of psions who do need it to the point that Psionic Meditation is a must take is probably less than your suggested 99%.

For example, you do not have your psionic focus when you are asleep, so for a psion who takes a psicrystal anyway, taking PsiCrystal Containment instead of Psionic Meditation might be preferable (e.g. so that Cerebral Immunity works 24/7 for a Slayer).
 

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Nail said:
We haven't had our Psi 14 use Ego Whip. He's had better methods of destroying bad guys.


.....my poor....poor......bad guys!!!! :(

As the Psi 14 (shaper) in question, I didn't fare so well against those faceless animated statues.. *grumble*.. though I think I should have used Crystalstorm.. I *think* that would have worked.. still, I wasn't that high on PP at that point..
 

nail said:
Like me.

But putting that aside for a moment, here are a few powers that have caused "raised eyebrows" around our gaming table.

Astral Construct
Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass
"Crystal Ray" (?) or some such...no SR, Ref save, 7d4 Con damage! It's fron Dragon Mag.

Crystalstorm, from Dragon #317

nail said:
Some powers the psion is able to extend for 48 hours, so he can manifest them for "free" essentially (since he did it the day before, and has now regained his power points).

Yes, I've made use of this already, in Nail's game.. :)
 

A few rules notes.
First concerning summoned creatures vs astral constructs. Summoned creatures, wether outsiders or magical beasts, are by definition extraplanar, and therefore subject to the effects of protection from X, magic circle, banishment, etc...
The protection from X spell is particularly important as one of the effects (immunity to mind control) is highly desireable, therefore making the spell much more commonly available. Dispel magic, dispel psionics, and dismiss ectoplasm (all lvl 3 spells as opposed to 1st lvl protection from X)

A sorceror firing a barrage of magic missiles was mentioned, along with the comment that there is no defense against it except SR. There are two other defenses, brooches of shielding and force effects. A brooch of shielding in particular seems like it would be an incredibly common item for mid- to high- level characters.

The issue of not having psionic items was brought up, this is in no way a rules issue, if your psion is not getting any dorjes or power crystals or psicrowns, then it is an issue with the campaign and/or the DM, take it up with them instead of trying to use it as a point in a rules-oriented discussion. There are many games where the arcane spellcasters don't have ready access to wands/staffs/scrolls either, the solution is to get crafting feats.

Concerning psions not having access to flight: Half of the psion types get access to flight of some kind as a 3rd lvl power(I admit it's a bit iffy for a shaper to be carried by a medium 3rd lvl construct, who can only carry 153 lbs aloft, but it's definitely possible with a 4th lvl construct), and the rest get access to overland flight as a 5th level power. Compared to priests who get wind walk at 4th lvl, wizards/sorcerors who get fly at 3rd lvl, and the rest of the classes who never get flight.

Finally there is my non rules-oriented take on the entire subject. Psions are meant to do different things than the other character classes, so of course they go about it in a different way.
 

azmodean said:
A sorceror firing a barrage of magic missiles was mentioned, along with the comment that there is no defense against it except SR. There are two other defenses, brooches of shielding and force effects. A brooch of shielding in particular seems like it would be an incredibly common item for mid- to high- level characters.

Unlikely. A Brooch of Shield takes up an Amulet/Brooch/Periapt slot. Very few PCs would use up that very important slot (Amulet of Health, Amulet of Natural Armor, Periapt of Wisdom, etc., etc., etc.) protecting themselves from one specific spell. And, the damage from Magic Missile, even Empowered, tends to be minimal at higher levels. Healing capability outweighs it significantly.

Additionally, very few monsters should have a Brooch of Shielding unless they face off against arcane spell casters on a significant basis.

A Brooch of Shielding should also be a rare item because very few NPCs would prefer that to one of the other items that could fit in that slot, even with it's cheap cost.

Also, Force Effects do not stop it. A Shield spell specifically negates it, but very few other force effect defenses do (none to my knowledge).

azmodean said:
The issue of not having psionic items was brought up, this is in no way a rules issue, if your psion is not getting any dorjes or power crystals or psicrowns, then it is an issue with the campaign and/or the DM, take it up with them instead of trying to use it as a point in a rules-oriented discussion. There are many games where the arcane spellcasters don't have ready access to wands/staffs/scrolls either, the solution is to get crafting feats.

This is not a moot issue. In order to have your psion gain 50% of his items as psionic (the other 50% magical) in a four PC group, 25% of your encounters where items could be acquired would on average have to be against NPCs who happen to have 50% psionic items.

Granted, a given DM could force this, but I suspect that with so few psionic creatures in the various books, this would be a rare occurrence in MOST campaigns.

azmodean said:
Concerning psions not having access to flight: Half of the psion types get access to flight of some kind as a 3rd lvl power(I admit it's a bit iffy for a shaper to be carried by a medium 3rd lvl construct, who can only carry 153 lbs aloft, but it's definitely possible with a 4th lvl construct), and the rest get access to overland flight as a 5th level power. Compared to priests who get wind walk at 4th lvl, wizards/sorcerors who get fly at 3rd lvl, and the rest of the classes who never get flight.

You are again mistaken. Overland Flight is a 6th level power, not 5th.

Plus, there are only a few ways to get psionic flight, most of them costly and inferior to a normal Fly spell.

The point you are missing is that non-arcane spell casters who cannot fly have more hit points, armor etc. Now, a psion could multiclass and wear armor, but a single class psion tends to be in the same boat as a Wizard or Sorcerer: D4 hit points and no armor. Hence, flight and invisibility are critically important as ways to get away from danger and psions are far behind in these regards.

The only ways to psionically fly are: Ectoplasmic Form (Egoist 3), Levitate, Psionic (all 2), Fly, Psionic (Nomad 4), Metamorphosis/Greater (Egoist 4/9), Overland Flight, Psionic (all 6), and Astral Construct (Shaper 1, but higher level for construct carrying psion and then only for one round per level max).

The problem is not so much that psions cannot fly if they really want to (often using a feat), it is that they cannot do it significantly in combat situations where it REALLY matters until much higher level. It is a significant hole (along with Invisibility) in their defensive repertoire considering that they are still stuck with D4 hit points like Wizards and Sorcerers.
 

Thanee said:
Planar Binding also doesn't work automatically, there is still a saving throw and an opposed Cha check involved.

Bye
Thanee

True, but once Moment of Prescience shows up the opposed charisma check isn't likely to be an issue.
 


Thanee said:
Heh. That's not a problem with the Planar spells themselves, tho.

Bye
Thanee

True, but it does make the Planar binding spell work rerally well once it shows up. It's also so amzingly nice for those life or death saving throws that it is wrth acquiring even for a sorcerer.
 


Videssian said:
As the Psi 14 (shaper) in question, I didn't fare so well against those faceless animated statues.. *grumble*.. though I think I should have used Crystalstorm.. I *think* that would have worked.. still, I wasn't that high on PP at that point..
Hey Videssian!

I must admit, the last two sessions have helped me put your Psi 14(shaper) power's into perspective. I'm still unsure about balance issues vs. other classes, but at least now I know the sorts of things a mid-high level psion is capable of!

I wonder if you could post the Crystalstorm power? (Here I am, DMing a psion who's used it several times, and I've never even read the Dragon Mag power. :uhoh: Oopps.)

The faceless animated statues were fun, eh? Here's the picture I used for the 1" by 1" counters:
faceless-2.jpg

Caretakers of the Stautary
 
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