Psionics: Balance and Integration

[KarinsDad]

Dunno, if there is a +5 one anywhere (there are so freaking many books, you'll never be sure ), but in the XPH (SRD) there is this:

Yup. An item that a psion would have to himself create (most likely).

5 PP, 5000 GP, 400 XP, and two feats (Expanded Knowledge and Craft Universal Item) and a psion could get DR 10, slow fly speed, and immunity to criticals and sneak attacks for one minute per level.

Sounds broken to me.

Course, how does this stop at 9th level (the level most psions could get this) spells or Dispel Magic (against a flying creature whose power does not prevent falling damage like a Fly spell) or those pesky giants that throw rocks that do between 2D6+7 and 3D6+14 points of damage?

 

[Thanee]

I also never really understood how people could find Harm broken. I mean, it actually heals the undead, if you cast it on them. How stupid is that?

Or in other words... I don't really know what you are trying to say there... the power does not make a Psion invincible, of course. It's just pretty damn good for a 3rd level power and without question much, much better than Fly or Gaseous Form (or even both together), tho for different reasons, Fly is superior for flying.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Or in other words... I don't really know what you are trying to say there... the power does not make a Psion invincible, of course. It's just pretty damn good for a 3rd level power and without question much, much better than Fly or Gaseous Form (or even both together), tho for different reasons, Fly is superior for flying.

What I am trying to say is that Ectoplasmic Form is slightly better than Gaseous Form. There are pros and cons to both.

However, Invisibility is WAY better than Cloud Mind.

Again, pros and cons.

You guys are so focused on those areas where psions are better that you totally ignore those where they are worse (like the fact that 80% of the powers have a range of Close or shorter).

 

[Thanee]

That's, however, not a very good way to balance powers, by making some better and some worse (while the effect is incredibly similar), since people tend to pick up only/mostly the better ones then.

Anyways, the topic was about finding unbalanced powers, not pairs of powers which are balanced as a whole, I suppose.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kelleris]

One thing that's been mentioned about psionics, which is rather a subtle point in all of its ramifications, is the "1-2 fight a day power point full force everything all out crazy attack" scenarios.

...

Point is, however -- it's kind of tough on the GM to always insure this sort of thing. In fact, it's near impossible.

If you are in a dungeon setting -- it's easy. 3-4 fights are guaranteed pretty much before a rest. Psionic types are balanced.

...

Looking back on it, I'd say a good 75% of my battles in the last year were of the 1-2 in a day variety. And it was pretty clear they were going to be the only battles that day, barring a very unexpected incident.

This isn't a big deal at all with magic-using PC's. They can't increase their power output quickly and freely.

Psionic-types can, and do.

It's a rather "hidden" advantage that I would be wary of. It might force you, as a GM, to change the way you set up encounters and play the game.

If you do a lot of "one big battle a day" encounters -- the psionicists are going to look, feel, and act very powerful.

...

This is the exact problem I had. Aside from nerfing a few individual powers (the energy chain, mind thrust, and ego whip) what I did was adapt the Unearthed Arcana "Exhausting Magic" variant to psionics. So if they blow through power points too quickly they become fatugued, and then exhausted, sometimes over the course of a single battle. On the other hand, psionic characters are a bit more flexible in how they regain their power points, and they have a "sweet spot" between one-half and two-thirds of their maximum where they can manifest occasional powers with effectively no power point cost.

No new rule sub-system like psionics is going to force me to change my DMing style for no other reason. Not going to happen, and that's what psionics was threatening to do.

The no-components-ever thing, and the additional ability to easily suppress even the displays, also drives me batty. Half the time I have a hard time justifying opponents' use of standard anti-spellcaster tactics against my psions because they just find a convenient rock and stand behind it. Short of process of elimination, it's not easy to tell where these effects are coming from.

And don't get me started on invisible/well-hidden psions. Humph.

(Note: Did not read the whole thread. Sorry if you've seen this already.)

EDIT: Did a little more reading. Nail, you asked about epic psions? Unfortunately, they actually get an extra helping of cheese, continuing to learn powers as part of their normal progression (unlike their sorcerous brethren) in exchange for an advanatage no other spellcaster receives either. The 30th-level psion (cosntructor, aargh) in a PbP game I'm in has 54 powers, plus one from Epic Expanded Knowledge and 3 more that he learned by paying NPC psion's to use psychic chirurgury on him. I would pity a Sorcerer, if we had one.

(As it was, he took issue with my Bard using spell points instead of slots, "because it made him feel less unique" and "took away a major advantage" of the psion. But that's neither here nor there.)

 

[Vurt]

Another bullet in the ectoplasmic/gaseous form debate: Ignoring fly speeds and duration differences, which one would an Egoist5/Wizard5 choose to cast?

Ectoplasmic form, where he can use his powers with a Concentration check?

Or gaseous form, which puts no limits on the use of psionic powers, since they have no verbal, somatic, material or focus components.

Strictly speaking, if I had a psion, forget about picking up the ectoplasmic form power, I'd be buying up potions of gaseous form instead! (Mind you, it's a simple fix to force the psion to use the Concentration check even while gaseous if he wants to get, um, his powers off.)

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Seeten]

So With eschew materials, I am able to dominate all combats and be invincible? Wow. for 1 feat and I can do this starting at level 5? Wow.

True, Eschew only works on mat components that arent worth more than 1 gold, but, thats most of em.

 

[Particle_Man]

I played a Blue Shaper (which my dm let be ECL=0). It didn't overpower anything. I think the "one critter per manifestation" helped combat go swiftly.

For those that play Psions: Save some of your points, unless the situation is dire. I can't count how many times I was tempted to "Go Big" but every time it turned out to be a mistake. The rest of the party will do just fine, and you will miss those points later during nocturnal encounters.

I think it would be amusing to have a party with both a Psion and a Warlock. One to handle the "one battle per day" situations, and one to handle the "18th battle of the day" situations. After all, there have been people complaining about the overpowered nature of both of them.

I thought part of the advantage of Summoned Monsters was that they could do other things besides simply fight (healing, etc.).

 

[KarinsDad]

I think it would be amusing to have a party with both a Psion and a Warlock. One to handle the "one battle per day" situations, and one to handle the "18th battle of the day" situations. After all, there have been people complaining about the overpowered nature of both of them.

We have two psions and a warlock in our group. The warlock runs out of spells about as often as the psions run out of points because at least the one psion (mine) tends to conserve her points.

 

[Kelleris]

We have two psions and a warlock in our group. The warlock runs out of spells about as often as the psions run out of points because at least the one psion (mine) tends to conserve her points.

:\

You sure you mean Warlock? The guys who have nothing but at-will abilities? You almost never run out of power points? I'm not sure how that's supposed to convince me psions are balanced.

Also, Particle Man, I haven't really seen many people complaining about the power level of the Warlock. If anything, it's typically seen as weaker than other casters, especially as you start gaining the mid and high levels.