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5E Psionics in Tasha

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
No matter how common they may be as fantasy tropes, or as memes, they don't exist as things in established D&D lore and canon.

I'm talking about things from established official D&D settings, things that are established as part of canonical D&D lore, not random memes or episodes of unrelated TV shows.

An episode of Family Guy isn't canonical for D&D nor a valid source for referencing D&D metaphysics.
It has been established in canonical D&D lore that psionics is totally unrelated to magic...and that the two coexist side-by-side and rarely interacting.

It has also been established (at least it appears in the preview of 5e psionics) in canonical D&D lore that psionics is exactly the same thing as an arcane magic spell and that "psions" are just another type of arcane caster along side wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.

Which canonical D&D lore wins???
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Someone mentioned Superheroes a while back, and that really brings home this exact problem. Comic books did not used to be all set in the same universe. Doctor Strange did not live in the same place as Professor X. Yet, both could mentally project an image of themselves into the mind of another person. And, the general consensus that has been reached in the comic book community is that everything interacts with everything else.

They were put in the same Universe pretty early... Dr. Strange was looped in by June 1964 in FF 27 (so, within his first year). And that was after 1963 which was one cross-over after another at the House of Ideas to get everyone else together.

You can build tech that defends against magical and psionic assualt. Mystic wards will block a psy-beam as easily as a plasma beam. In DnD terms, everything is magic, it is just a different expression of it, given from a different source. Which was about the only way they could go, in comics, to have anything stay coherent, when you have people born with the genetic ability to open portals to other dimensions, and other people who do it with tech, and other people who trained with an asian monk under a waterfall doing the same thing, it has to be more about "what is the effect" than "how is it they are trying to achieve this effect"

Having devices that block psionics is a regular thing in Marvel Comics. And having magic that does just about anything is a regular thing. I don't remember mutant powers or tech or psionics stopping magic in the 616 though. Do you have a favorite example?
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Psionics isn't bound this way. The only limitation is what their minds can create and handle.

Or until they attract the attention of "things" that like people who use mind powers.

One of the things that's annoyed me about some versions of psionics is that the whole point is to be able to one-up everyone, where nothing non-psionic can stop them. It feels like thats a horrible selling point for a game where any other character type is supposed to be useful.

Now, having a different power (aks spell?) list, and not having components seems like no-brainers.
 





Cadence

Legend
Supporter
You get your ability to cast arcane spells back by resting through the mental rest, because of the mental focus required to shape those external energies. It takes a lot of willpower and focus to cast arcane spells, the mental rest and recuperation is what is important.

The idea that arcane magic comes from within is so absurd and breaks so much established D&D lore that it's not worth even giving serious thought to, it is to be dismissed out of hand as inherently ridiculous. Sorcerers have an innate talent for directing and channeling magical energy, but it's not from within them. Whoever wrote fluff saying otherwise, quite bluntly, was creating major contradictions in the lore.

The spell chapters seem mention the shaping external energies, but the part in the class descriptions feels a lot different...

"Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped. Some sorcerers wield magic that springs from an ancient bloodline infused with the magic of dragons. Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways."

"Sorcerers are rare in the world, and it’s unusual to find a sorcerer who is not involved in the adventuring life in some way. People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on."

"An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells."

"Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world."

"At 2nd level, you tap into a deep wellspring of magic within yourself. This wellspring is represented by sorcery points, which allow you to create a variety of magical effects."
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Well, as it appears that psionics as an alternate magic power source is winning, I'm not sure that's going the way you wanted?

?

Stating a truism is not wanting. Whether or not I think most people suck, or not, is a completely different exercise.

After all, you can't trust people. People like Nickelback and gave Driving Miss Daisy the Best Picture Oscar.
 
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Arcane and Divine are exactly the same. There is no separation at all.
As far as 5th edition rules are concerned, yes.

As far as established D&D lore, the canons of most D&D settings, and the rules of D&D 1st through 4th editions. . .heck no.

It rather makes 5e the dissenting outlier here, not the standard that is set.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It has been established in canonical D&D lore that psionics is totally unrelated to magic...and that the two coexist side-by-side and rarely interacting.

It has also been established (at least it appears in the preview of 5e psionics) in canonical D&D lore that psionics is exactly the same thing as an arcane magic spell and that "psions" are just another type of arcane caster along side wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.

Which canonical D&D lore wins???

Psionics as powers vs spells is 4 editions to 1.

I get it. Psionics would be a headache to focus test, playtest, and design. However it never was going to mainstream. Attempting to apply normal acceptance levels in order to gauge design favorablity of psionics was doomed to be unlocked by past fans.
Or until they attract the attention of "things" that like people who use mind powers.

One of the things that's annoyed me about some versions of psionics is that the whole point is to be able to one-up everyone, where nothing non-psionic can stop them. It feels like thats a horrible selling point for a game where any other character type is supposed to be useful.

Now, having a different power (aks spell?) list, and not having components seems like no-brainers.

I remember one of the issue with psionics is that no psionics were resistant to some powers. And mere fact that you were psionic meant you were weak to psionics and had to constant invest in defending your mind.

Then there was that everyone is a specialist thing and how hard it was to branch out.

But yeah psionics characters could really one up spellcasters in a few things.
 


Even in 3e the idea of Psionic effects being subject to magical dispels and being treated like Magic was discussed in books.

Simply put how the DM wants to handle the interaction betwixt Psionic and Magic is their decision to make. That is essentially what the U/A Psionic Sidebar stated.

I doubt that position has changed.

It is also fine if Psionic power in Eberron is just like magic, and the opposite is true in Dark Sun, or the Forgotten Realms.

The multiverse can come in many different flavors. It is not like, most of you don't use a heavily mod'd version of 5e, based off your posts. 😀
Let's just make it official, every world, every table is different, and official.
 

It has been established in canonical D&D lore that psionics is totally unrelated to magic...and that the two coexist side-by-side and rarely interacting.

It has also been established (at least it appears in the preview of 5e psionics) in canonical D&D lore that psionics is exactly the same thing as an arcane magic spell and that "psions" are just another type of arcane caster along side wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.

Which canonical D&D lore wins???
For ~40 years, since Psionics were introduced in the 1st edition DMG, until now, Psionics were treated as something other than magic, a separate power source under a separate name.

In every D&D setting that has used psionics, it's been treated as something other than spells, a distinctly "third" alternative to arcane and divine magic. Right offhand I know it was treated that was in Forgotten Realms (right offhand I remember the difference being explicitly described and discussed in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical as not being magic and being something else) and in Dark Sun (entire books written on the subject, like The Will and the Way).

At best you had the treatment from 3rd edition and later where Psionic powers and Magic spells could directly detect, protect from, or dispel each other, but even then the actual abilities were still considered distinct.

That's a vast and overwhelming consensus of 4 editions of D&D, and the "fluff" or lore of multiple settings. . .vs. a preview of the 5th edition psionic rules released a few days ago.

The fact that WotC decided to make 5th edition Psionics totally different than everything before and just make it apparently a different spell list and that's it does NOT change a decades-long consensus of D&D editions and campaign settings. . .it means that 5th edition is the one that is out of line, not that other editions and settings are out of line because they contradict 5e.
 

Not since 2e.
You think there aren't distinctions between Arcane and Divine magic in 3e and 4e?

3e is what literally gave us the terms "Arcane" and "Divine" when "Wizard" and "Priest" magic was generally used before that. When you read the spellcasting descriptions in a 3e class, it specifically enumerates if it's considered arcane or divine. . .and one hard mechanical difference between them is that divine spells don't suffer from Arcane Spell Failure for somatic components in armor. Also, Prestige Classes often specified if spellcasting for a prerequisite had to be Arcane or Divine in nature. . .Cleric or Druid spellcasting would never qualify you for Arcane Archer, and no amount of Wizard levels could qualify you to be a Heirophant.

4e went so far as to break down all classes into a "power source" and a role. . .with Arcane and Divine as two of the first and major "power sources".
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
For ~40 years, since Psionics were introduced in the 1st edition DMG, until now, Psionics were treated as something other than magic, a separate power source under a separate name.
No they weren't, 3e started treating psionics as magic and 3.5e went further in that regard with stating that it's the default that psionics can be affected by magic. For almost the last 20 years psionics has been magic, it's just that it's often used different mechanics.
 

No they weren't, 3e started treating psionics as magic and 3.5e went further in that regard with stating that it's the default that psionics can be affected by magic. For almost the last 20 years psionics has been magic, it's just that it's often used different mechanics.
Uh, no. 3e did explicitly NOT consider psionics magic. There's a WORLD of difference between saying that psionics and magic can affect each other, and saying they're the same thing.

Try qualifying for a spellcasting prestige class with Psionic levels. . .you can't. Try qualifying for magic item creation feats with psionic levels, or taking psionic feats with only having spellcasting classes. It does NOT work like that.

They are different things, not interchangable.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Not since 2e.

3.5 made at least a little distinction anyway... "Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells." ... "However, only characters who have the spell in question (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll."

And they had different lists and could be different level of spell. ::🤷::
 
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