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5E Psionics in Tasha

You get your ability to cast arcane spells back by resting through the mental rest, because of the mental focus required to shape those external energies. It takes a lot of willpower and focus to cast arcane spells, the mental rest and recuperation is what is important.

The idea that arcane magic comes from within is so absurd and breaks so much established D&D lore that it's not worth even giving serious thought to, it is to be dismissed out of hand as inherently ridiculous. Sorcerers have an innate talent for directing and channeling magical energy, but it's not from within them. Whoever wrote fluff saying otherwise, quite bluntly, was creating major contradictions in the lore.

You forget the "in my opinion" part of that. Because, I have often seen in the text and various sources, about people being tested for "magical aptitude" before being allowed to study magic. Or with them discovering a "latent power" that allows them to cast magic. In many of the DnD novels magic is described as an internal force.

Also, see what you did there? What does it take to cast spells? "because of the mental focus required to shape those external energies. It takes a lot of willpower and focus to cast arcane spells". Sounds a lot like... psionics. Intense mental focus and willpower.



Or, to put it in specific examples from the lore that specifies that it is not internal and is ambient in the world.

If magic came from within, in Forgotten Realms, the death of Mystryl due to Karsus's Folly wouldn't have caused magic to go wild then fade for several minutes, and the death of Mystra wouldn't have caused the Spellplague. In Dragonlance, the loss of the 3 Gods of Magic, and their gift to the world in the form of arcane magic, in the time between the Chaos War and the War of Souls wouldn't mean that Arcane magic was lost to the world and they had to discover a completely new form of magic in that time that didn't even fit D&D forms of magic to the point that TSR used a non-D&D game system to represent that era, that or they had to find old magic items and plunder them for the magical energies trapped in them as the last remnants of Arcane magic in the world.

That's 2 of the major D&D settings that would have major world-sweeping metaplot events (2 in FR, 1 in Dragonlance) that just plain wouldn't work if Arcane magic worked like you described.


Sure it could. Fairly easily.

Let me ask you a question, what would happen if the diety in charge of defining air and its movement was killed? Would the air inside your body work the same way?

Because there is air outside and inside your body. At the same time. You can't talk or sing if you have no air inside your body, and you can't tale or sing if there is no air outside your body.

Thus I see magic. Both internal and external. Because if it were purely external, then spell slots wouldn't be a thing. I would be like a Warlock. I can cast five spells, total, not three 3rd level, one second and a first level. The levels of slots must represent an internal reserve of energy, not the mental focus of moving external energy.
 

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Psionic inTasha won’t be core. So if nobody use them, they will eventually make another variant of the psionic.

editing every spell at casting is an overhead the game avoid to keep things simple and fluid.
It’s only a game design decision.
The weave, the formula are only fluff, appealing for those who keep track of the core lore of DnD.

I agree with this.. Maxperson was largely correct when they stated earlier that the U/A subclasses most recently released for play testing were just dipping their toes into psionics.
Spells that are mind magic, and overlap with psionics are not a new concept.
Tasha's is giving Psi flavored magic..which is enough for most, (just not some people).

The Artificer class was released as part of a setting to give the class context.
Only later, in the forthcoming Tasha's book will a more generalized Artificer be released.

The same could, and probably should happen for a 'Psioncist'. Psionics need a contextual grounding, there needs to be a setting that models how they could work, as part of world building.

In short Psionics as a stand alone class needs a setting, to be viable.

Releasing Psionics as a separate subsystem without context is what has impeded acceptance over the years.

Like Magic of Incarnum or Weapons of Legacy in 3e, dumping a Psionics book that requires a substantial expenditure of time to garner system mastery of the new subsystem, as well as Needing the mammoth creative undertaking of altering your campaign world so the new subsystem feels integrated and coherent with narrative and world building elements is crazy.

The Boeing 737 Supermax Is a good real world example of what happens when you graft a new subsystem to an already functioning system, without appropriate concern or caution for the holistic functions of the system as a whole. The plane crashes.

In the history of D&D, Psionics, has functionally crashed and burned more games, then 737 planes have crashed....yet people still want something like the psionics of old...which crash and burn...which is the very definition of insanity.

I've been in a Ford Van that caught fire, (which is a failure not uncommon in Ford's past), I sure as hell, am not going to Blithely risk buying a product that over time has been shown to consistently be a weak link.

Psionics are the Appendix organ of D&D, mildly useful, but not essential, and when Psionic rules burst like an inflamed appendix they can kill your game.

Personally, fixing the Ranger would be better use of WOTC's time.
 
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Let me ask you a question, what would happen if the diety in charge of defining air and its movement was killed? Would the air inside your body work the same way?
Yes, because air doesn't require a God to exist.

Air comes from the Elemental Plane of Air. It isn't inherently created and defined by a God. It's a basic element of reality that isn't shaped or regulated by a deity. There are deities of air that exist as personifications of air, but air doesn't inherently require those deities to exist in normal D&D settings. It exists just fine in D&D settings without gods, like Dark Sun.

If you kill the God of Death, does Death cease to exist in the world? If you kill the God of War, do all wars everywhere end? If you kill the God of Nature, does all nature die? No, because metaphysical concepts or basic physical concepts exist independent of a deity. Magic has been repeatedly shown to not work like that in D&D settings.

When all the Gods left Krynn after the Chaos War (or as it was later retconned, Takhisis hid the world away from the Gods for decades), the things that disappeared were divine magic (due to the Gods not having access to the world), and arcane magic (due to the Gods of Magic not being present to provide it). When the Gods left Krynn after the Cataclysm, Divine magic left, but Arcane magic stayed because the 3 gods of Magic were the only deities that still were present on Krynn. When a God dies on Toril, that concept doesn't disappear, fade away or go wild. . .except when it's the Goddess of Magic. When Myrkul died in the Time of Troubles, the concept of death didn't cease to exist or go wild and rampant until Kelemvor took over the portfolio. When Leira was killed, illusions didn't fade away or cease to work or become unstable.

The only place in D&D lore I'm aware of where a basic, fundamental element of the world just ceases to exist because a deity dies is when a god of magic leaves or is killed and arcane magic just vanishes, which happened in FR and DL. In both of those worlds, the "fluff" is quite clear that arcane magic is a force that is ambient in the world, originally flowing from the deities, which mortals learn to tap as the energy surrounds them, but which withers away without the deities of magic present, as if turning off a spigot of water. Divine magic lacks that intermediary, which is a direct connection from the caster to the divine. Psionics skips relations to deities entirely and comes entirely from within, making it popular with those not on good terms with deities (which was at least mentioned a few times in passing in Planescape lore, but never explored in depth)

I'm specifically presenting examples from two different major, popular D&D settings to make it clear this is not a single setting-specific expectation but a more baseline concept of D&D metaphysics.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No. We've played this game for years and both know how it ends. It surely was not an insult to call you a gadfly - your very next post started with the words, "Sure, I like to argue". We both know you are in fact one and I don't see why that would be an insult to you as you normally wear it proudly.
Liking to debate isn't the same as being a Gadfly and you know it. It was in fact an insult, as was the veiled one I referred to. Since you have opted to double down on your insults, I'm going to tell you that if you insult me again it will be reported.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
If you kill the God of Death, does Death cease to exist in the world? If you kill the God of War, do all wars everywhere end? If you kill the God of Nature, does all nature die? No, because metaphysical concepts or basic physical concepts exist independent of a deity. Magic has been repeatedly shown to not work like that in D&D settings.

All of those are common fantasy tropes.

Death dying or retiring and everyone becoming immortal is almost a meme. They did that on Family Guy for Anubis' sake.
 

All of those are common fantasy tropes.

Death dying or retiring and everyone becoming immortal is almost a meme. They did that on Family Guy for Anubis' sake.
No matter how common they may be as fantasy tropes, or as memes, they don't exist as things in established D&D lore and canon.

I'm talking about things from established official D&D settings, things that are established as part of canonical D&D lore, not random memes or episodes of unrelated TV shows.

An episode of Family Guy isn't canonical for D&D nor a valid source for referencing D&D metaphysics.
 

Mistwell

Legend
Liking to debate isn't the same as being a Gadfly and you know it. It was in fact an insult, as was the veiled one I referred to. Since you have opted to double down on your insults, I'm going to tell you that if you insult me again it will be reported.

OK Max, sorry if that came across poorly to you. It was not meant that way and I apologize that I chose my words with less care than I should have.
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
No matter how common they may be as fantasy tropes, or as memes, they don't exist as things in established D&D lore and canon.

I'm talking about things from established official D&D settings, things that are established as part of canonical D&D lore, not random memes or episodes of unrelated TV shows.

An episode of Family Guy isn't canonical for D&D nor a valid source for referencing D&D metaphysics.

I know. It's a joke.

However D&D settings with a Weave, Shadow Weave, or Truenaming has magic flow through or by accordance to a god or multiple gods whereas psionics does not.

Psionics as spell works for setting where goddess do not manage the flow, access, nor structure of magic. However in the most popular D&D settings it does.

Psionics as spells is like making Hamon, Kamehameha waves, and Ninjutsu core concepts for fighters.
 


Stormonu

Legend
I'm just concerned with them being formatted as spell, with spell schools is going to create some interactions that ruffle my feathers, and its a bit unsettling that the fluff doesn't quite match expectations.

I can see, though, why they formatted them as spells - they might be abilities that also get doled out to other classes or already be part of another class's spell list - and who wants multiple copies of the same ability written out yet again just because it's coming from a different source - would psionic Mind Blank be really that much different from the spell Mind Blank?

As an aside, the Savage World RPG made a central list of powers and then created a trait that you selected that defined the source of your power - For example, you might have an Invisibility power, but the source could be Divine, Huckster Magic, Demon Magic, Generic Magic, Mad Science or Superpower. Mechanically, they acted the same, but because of the fluff source, you could tailor the description and interactions to fit your game. It works for that game well, it's just a shame D&D didn't consider this approach and made the assumption the source of everything would be spell magic.
 

However D&D settings with a Weave, Shadow Weave, or Truenaming has magic flow through or by accordance to a god or multiple gods whereas psionics does not.

Psionics as spell works for setting where goddess do not manage the flow, access, nor structure of magic. However in the most popular D&D settings it does.

Psionics as spells is like making Hamon, Kamehameha waves, and Ninjutsu core concepts for fighters.
I'm not defending this idea of psionics as spells. I think it's rather silly. That's not what my posts were about.

I was opposing the idea that Chaosmancer and Crimson Longinus put out that psionics are redundant and superfluous to D&D because they were arguing that arcane magic didn't rely on gods in any way and came from within, making psionics essentially another form of arcane magic.

Hence pointing out the established canonical metaphysics of D&D settings that established that divine, arcane, and psionic powers come from distinctly different sources.
 







Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
I was opposing the idea that Chaosmancer and Crimson Longinus put out that psionics are redundant and superfluous to D&D because they were arguing that arcane magic didn't rely on gods in any way and came from within, making psionics essentially another form of arcane magic.
Divine magic doesn't necessarily need Gods either (dependant on campaign setting).
 

"More more or less?"

Did... did you ever read the Complete Psionics Handbook? It was a skill-based system, more akin to Proficiency rolls with power points than anything to do with the magic system.

Maybe you meant 5E or something? I have no idea how it worked in that system.

I would have much preferred that they released no psionics system than just spells labelled as psionic.

There were actually two systems... the one you referred to and the one from skills and powers. We used the latter. I don´t really remember how it worked in complete psionics (other than that it used all abilities and seemed even more clunky in actual play), but the latter one was the one with open and closed minds I referred to in a different post.
In skills and powers you usually rolled a mental attack roll vs mental armor class. No too different from attack spells, or rather how powers worked in 4e.

Did you read 5e? If you did you would have noticed, that psionics in a FUTURE book is the name of this thread.
 

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