D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[JiffyPopTart]

Out of all of them, the druid is the most difficult to deal with, and even they are not as powerful as the Psion. It can be worked out, I'm not saying it can't, but dismissing it as a non-issue seems odd to me, when it is the first problem I come up with that needs solving.

Lets try to refocus back to the highest level possible because discussing rats and captives has us very in the weeds. I'm going to pose a very basic question to start a discussion from. I'm going to ignore the 5 million other psion threads and just focus on a high level topic with you because I feel like we have differing viewpoints but can have an intellectual debate about how we feel about it without having to be "right" about it.

What breaks in 5e if a class is able to cast all of their spells with no components?

 

[Vael]

What breaks in 5e if a class is able to cast all of their spells with no components?

I don't think anything is broken. It's very difficult/requires specific magic items to stop a component-less caster from casting, and they are effectively immune to Counterspell, which is potent, but only one spell.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I don't think anything is broken. It's very difficult/requires specific magic items to stop a component-less caster from casting, and they are effectively immune to Counterspell, which is potent, but only one spell.

Would a caveat "A psion may not manifest any powers if they are wearing a metal head covering" satisfy the need for being able to stop them from casting and the inability to be counterspelled then be a benefit but one inline with other character classes?

 

[Chaosmancer]

In 5e cranium rat swarms are medium creatures so every rat in the swarm is in the same square. They can't be spread out and still be a swarm unless you are changing up the mechanics of the creature from the rules as written.

But "same square" is a pretty amorphous amount of space. "Can fit in a five foot cube" covers them being in a small tunnel that goes over two feet and up three. Or tons of other configurations. And since the swarm is still the swarm with an unknown number of members, we are left with a lot of DM interpretation of how many rats need to be in a five foot cube to count as a the swarm being whole.

Lets try to refocus back to the highest level possible because discussing rats and captives has us very in the weeds. I'm going to pose a very basic question to start a discussion from. I'm going to ignore the 5 million other psion threads and just focus on a high level topic with you because I feel like we have differing viewpoints but can have an intellectual debate about how we feel about it without having to be "right" about it.

What breaks in 5e if a class is able to cast all of their spells with no components?

Breaks in what way?

Mechanics of a war game? A Bit. It closes down some rare counter-play options and allows them to be undetectable during combat. The ability to be perfectly hidden, not do anything, and cause effects to occur can be powerful in the right game. The ability to shut down counterspell is generally considered powerful, even though I never really see it being used.

Lore of the World? Potentially a lot. Being even mildly clever lets you get away with dozens of different schemes and capers, using the cover of crowds to assassinate, manipulate and destroy kingdoms and nobles with near impunity. You cannot be contained or stopped in nearly any conventional way, even knowing you exist can be a massive struggle for any authorities who are dealing with the fallout of a socially, politically, or militarily important person falling dead, exploding, or going insane in public. No one can be trusted, and you would have to develop new magical technologies or simply kill everyone with any known magical talent, just to be safe, leading to massive shifts in how the world works and who runs it.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Lore of the World? Potentially a lot. Being even mildly clever lets you get away with dozens of different schemes and capers, using the cover of crowds to assassinate, manipulate and destroy kingdoms and nobles with near impunity. You cannot be contained or stopped in nearly any conventional way, even knowing you exist can be a massive struggle for any authorities who are dealing with the fallout of a socially, politically, or militarily important person falling dead, exploding, or going insane in public. No one can be trusted, and you would have to develop new magical technologies or simply kill everyone with any known magical talent, just to be safe, leading to massive shifts in how the world works and who runs it.

So lets focus in on this statement a bit and I offer a revised version of my question....

In a world where sorcerers can already cast spells not using components how would a second class being introduced also able to cast spells not using components alter how NPCs operate?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Mechanics of a war game? A Bit. It closes down some rare counter-play options and allows them to be undetectable during combat. The ability to be perfectly hidden, not do anything, and cause effects to occur can be powerful in the right game. The ability to shut down counterspell is generally considered powerful, even though I never really see it being used.

I will separately focus on this just a bit.

Both myself and yourself have said that in our games we rarely see Counterspell used. Very few NPCs or monsters in any given campaign would have access to counterspell. Many more have access to a dispel effect or anti-magic one ( like a beholder), which only take effect after the spell has already been cast. So yes, losing the ability to be counter spelled IS a benefit, but is it really a big one when the application is so niche?

Similarly why would you say that lack of components necessarily renders a spellcaster hidden or unnoticeable? Some spells have obvious indicators built into their descriptions, like Fireball not only clearly indicates to everyone in the area something happened (a big explosion) it also has a precursor effect of having a small flaming ball shooting out from the caster towards the target before it explodes. Other spells remain silent on the matter, so it is up to the GMs interpretation on what sort of indication there is that something happened. A Mind Flayers' mindblast power, for example, doesn't necessarily have a description on how it interacts with the atmosphere or the surroundings, but it would be completely fair for the GM to describe a "cone of energy emitting from the creature" right before 4 party members fell over bleeding from their eyesockets. The visual indication that a spell is being cast doesn't have to rest solely on the backs of the caster using VSM components to cast the spell. This is literally what displays were in 3e, a method of balancing the powers by not letting a player rest on the idea that everything is super silent and super hidden.

Merging this reply with my previous reply to @Vael....

Would you feel that a psion class with no component casting was fairly balanced by instituting a metal cap=no casting rule AND obvious displays attached to each power such that the psion (with few exceptions that need it for the powers to work correctly) is obviously doing something when using a power?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

But "same square" is a pretty amorphous amount of space. "Can fit in a five foot cube" covers them being in a small tunnel that goes over two feet and up three. Or tons of other configurations. And since the swarm is still the swarm with an unknown number of members, we are left with a lot of DM interpretation of how many rats need to be in a five foot cube to count as a the swarm being whole.

I think a fair starting point is that, being a medium creature, the swarm should take up the equivalent mass of a medium (not small) creature. So, roughly as much rat mass as a human or elf, not a gnome or halfling. All packed in a 5X5X5 area. Normal rats do not congregate this way.

This video shows the difference between a lot of mice (at the beginning) and a swarm of mice (when the door is opened).

 

[Shardstone]

Why has there been an entire argument spawning out of one person running cranium rats poorly for their table? Are we arguing that psionics are overpowered now? Is that what this has degenerated too?

Leave psionics to hombrew or 3rd party at this point. I don't want them if it means I have to argue about whether cranium rats are OP or not...

 

[Maxperson]

Which is literally my point Max. If both the weapon attack and the spell trigger on a readied action, and the spell's trigger was waiting for the guard to be distracted into leaving an opening where they could not attack, why are you saying that the weapon attack would resolve first? They are equally fast actions. At a minimum, it is an initiative check.

The guards would notice him staring intently waiting for his opening for distraction and would be on guard. That's the first thing. Second, they'd only tolerate that so long before they made him regret it and behave.

An even deeper nail in this coffin is some information someone sent me. Like for example, in the Errata document for the Player's Handbook is states "Ranger’s Companion (p. 93). The following sentence has been added to the end of the first paragraph: “Like any creature, the beast can spend Hit Dice during a short rest.” "

Like any creature saying that this is not a unique ability to people with class levels.

Additionally, they pointed out that there was literally this question in a Sage Advice. The poster asked "Do monster have hit dice they can use to heal during a short rest ? " and Crawford's response was "A monster's Hit Dice are noted in parentheses in its hit point entry." Since the answer to the question was only to point to the Hit Dice existing, it helps support the idea that Hit Dice are Hit Dice, and they work the same for all individuals. Class Hit Dice are just calculated differently, they do not have unique mechanics.

Monsters and NPCs have Hit Dice. They can spend Hit Dice during a short rest, and recover them on a long rest, just like everyone else.

This argument I find to be persuasive. I will concede that they have hit dice to spend.

What I am not persuaded by is that it would be any sort of problem to just knock him out and keep him knocked out if he's a pain. Even though he has hit dice to spend, they won't do him any good if he misbehaves.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So lets focus in on this statement a bit and I offer a revised version of my question....

In a world where sorcerers can already cast spells not using components how would a second class being introduced also able to cast spells not using components alter how NPCs operate?

So, there are a few points here that need addressing.

1) Sorcerers are born, meanwhile most psions are generally seen as training, similiar to how monks operate. This makes Sorcerers not only rarer, but you cannot choose to become a sorcerer. You would be able to train and become a Psion, making them far more common.

2) Sorcerers need to reach level 3, and pick subtle spell, to be able to cast three spells without components. So, if we started with saying that a Sorcerer is a 1 in 100,000 birth (number chosen randomly), and each level drops the number of people in the pool by 10%, then a 3rd level sorcerer is about a 1 in 10,000,000 occurrence. Making them even more rare.

3) A 3rd level sorcerer is allowed to pick two metamagics, out of a collection of eight. Brute forcing some math, I think there are about 28 combinations of metamagic, only seven of them include subtle spell, which gives you about a 25% chance of having subtle spell on your list. I think that drops us to about 1 in 100,000,000 if I'm any good at this style of math.

This leaves us a very very small percentage of people who are even capable of this feat, let alone actually having the desire to cause any trouble.

I haven't mentioned Psions during points 2 and 3, because per how this is being presented, every psion starts with this ability at first level, meaning those extra steps of rarity do not come into play. And remember, Psions are generally someone who can be trained, meaning they are only as rare as the people who can train them. So, a secret cabal of psionic assassins is actually incredibly likely, especially compared to a cabal of Sorcererous Silent Spell Assassins which is nearly impossible to actually have.


And, this is the core problem to face. If Psions can be trained, and they can be so immensely powerful, everyone will want to train them. Or, barring that, kill them so that they cannot be used against them.