D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Chaosmancer]

I will separately focus on this just a bit.

Both myself and yourself have said that in our games we rarely see Counterspell used. Very few NPCs or monsters in any given campaign would have access to counterspell. Many more have access to a dispel effect or anti-magic one ( like a beholder), which only take effect after the spell has already been cast. So yes, losing the ability to be counter spelled IS a benefit, but is it really a big one when the application is so niche?

Similarly why would you say that lack of components necessarily renders a spellcaster hidden or unnoticeable? Some spells have obvious indicators built into their descriptions, like Fireball not only clearly indicates to everyone in the area something happened (a big explosion) it also has a precursor effect of having a small flaming ball shooting out from the caster towards the target before it explodes. Other spells remain silent on the matter, so it is up to the GMs interpretation on what sort of indication there is that something happened. A Mind Flayers' mindblast power, for example, doesn't necessarily have a description on how it interacts with the atmosphere or the surroundings, but it would be completely fair for the GM to describe a "cone of energy emitting from the creature" right before 4 party members fell over bleeding from their eyesockets. The visual indication that a spell is being cast doesn't have to rest solely on the backs of the caster using VSM components to cast the spell. This is literally what displays were in 3e, a method of balancing the powers by not letting a player rest on the idea that everything is super silent and super hidden.

Merging this reply with my previous reply to @Vael....

Would you feel that a psion class with no component casting was fairly balanced by instituting a metal cap=no casting rule AND obvious displays attached to each power such that the psion (with few exceptions that need it for the powers to work correctly) is obviously doing something when using a power?

I think the metal cap issue causes problems in regards to armor. Which Psions will be able to get. I much preferred my Blindfold idea. But, the cap idea does also work. I don't like it aesthetically, but something along those same lines could be used (brass or copper circlets?)

I tend to agree with you that the ability not to be counterspelled is fairly niche and not that big of a deal, in our games. However, I have to acknowledge that for some tables, the ability to not be counterspelled is considered one of the most powerful abilities you can have, and nearly solely carries the entire sorcerer class for those people.

Since I am not sure which table is the outlier, I can't judge if it is a huge deal, or a minor deal.

A lot of people also say that casting a spell with no components is unnoticeable, ie, there are no displays. Something like shatter is a blast of force on a point, with nothing visibly connecting the caster to the event if you take out components. For a spell like Phantasmal force, there is no reason to assume anything visible happens at all.

This becomes such a hit or miss aspect, that in terms of thinking about the power, I find it would be safer to assume that there is nothing connecting the event to the caster, unless explicitly stated. Now, my players would likely want there to be most of the time. They want their caster to send out massive waves of light, or crackling energy, simply because it looks cool. But, that is not a guarantee, simply a preference they have when it does not matter. I would not be surprised to find that when it matters, most players would instead prefer to not be noticed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think a fair starting point is that, being a medium creature, the swarm should take up the equivalent mass of a medium (not small) creature. So, roughly as much rat mass as a human or elf, not a gnome or halfling. All packed in a 5X5X5 area. Normal rats do not congregate this way.

This video shows the difference between a lot of mice (at the beginning) and a swarm of mice (when the door is opened).

Except, the art has never shown them stacked 5 ft high. They are generally shown as covering a 5x5 area. And that makes a huge difference. After all, an snake is generally considered lower to the ground, and five feet long. Not filling a 5x5x5 area.

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The guards would notice him staring intently waiting for his opening for distraction and would be on guard. That's the first thing. Second, they'd only tolerate that so long before they made him regret it and behave.

With your first point, are you then suggesting that the Guard would beat the prisoner for staring at them? That is getting into some incredibly morally dark territory if you start beating helpless prisoners for how they look at the man holding a sword to their throat.

Which does bring me to an unspoken point here. To even have a chance to transport this Psion safely, you need to institute nearly mandatory, hourly beatings, and bring them to the point of exhaustion to have them nearly dead (remember, it only takes four days without sleep for them to be at half speed walking, slowing down the entire party, 5 for them to be unable to move, and 6 kills them. Meanwhile, they will regain all hp and all "points" one a single nights rest.)

Second, tolerate what? Staring? That is a dark turn of phrase then. Attacking their captors? Well, other than mercilessly beating them until they stop resisting, and hoping that they don't escape during the one or two times you did tolerate it, there isn't much to be done.

What I am not persuaded by is that it would be any sort of problem to just knock him out and keep him knocked out if he's a pain. Even though he has hit dice to spend, they won't do him any good if he misbehaves.

It means that know you have to insitute hourly beatings to keep them unconcious. Otherwise, they could spend those hit dice to have enough hp to survive a single weapon attack, making the readied attack for them casting not enough to stop them from casting, and potentially escaping the guard. So, you would have to beat them unconcious almost every hour, otherwise they might regain enough strength to fight back.


And, I'll reiterate this again, since we have gotten to this point. To capture a psion, and safely transport them, has gotten the player characters into hourly beatings of a restrained prisoner, preventing them from sleeping until they are nearly dead with exhaustion, and even this much torture and degradation might not be enough to keep them safe from the Psion retaliating. Which they will most assuredly want to do to the monsters who are keeping them in constant pain and exhaustion.

And, once they get to where they are going... how do you keep someone in prison without killing them under those conditions? I don't think you can.

 

[Maxperson]

With your first point, are you then suggesting that the Guard would beat the prisoner for staring at them? That is getting into some incredibly morally dark territory if you start beating helpless prisoners for how they look at the man holding a sword to their throat.

There's a difference between a stare and a constant, ceaseless vigil to find an opening. You can tell when the latter is happening.

Which does bring me to an unspoken point here. To even have a chance to transport this Psion safely, you need to institute nearly mandatory, hourly beatings, and bring them to the point of exhaustion to have them nearly dead (remember, it only takes four days without sleep for them to be at half speed walking, slowing down the entire party, 5 for them to be unable to move, and 6 kills them. Meanwhile, they will regain all hp and all "points" one a single nights rest.)

He's getting sleep. He's not getting a long rest. I see no reason to give a level of exhaustion a day When rest is being had. He's just not getting enough to get a long rest.

It means that know you have to insitute hourly beatings to keep them unconcious. Otherwise, they could spend those hit dice to have enough hp to survive a single weapon attack, making the readied attack for them casting not enough to stop them from casting, and potentially escaping the guard. So, you would have to beat them unconcious almost every hour, otherwise they might regain enough strength to fight back.

If he could have escaped, he probably would have. He'd be bright enough not to fight to the death/unconsciousness.

And, I'll reiterate this again, since we have gotten to this point. To capture a psion, and safely transport them, has gotten the player characters into hourly beatings of a restrained prisoner, preventing them from sleeping until they are nearly dead with exhaustion, and even this much torture and degradation might not be enough to keep them safe from the Psion retaliating. Which they will most assuredly want to do to the monsters who are keeping them in constant pain and exhaustion.

He's not going to retaliate. At best he would escape, but even that's highly unlikely.

And, once they get to where they are going... how do you keep someone in prison without killing them under those conditions? I don't think you can.

Stick a helmet on their head. That was actually the rule in a few editions of D&D. Couldn't use psionics with a helmet on. Or the blindfold. Or keep him tortured to the point of being at the brink of death. Or, since Psions are incredibly rare, don't worry about it. From the Mystic PDF...

"Mystics are incredibly rare, and most prefer to keep the nature of their abilities secret."

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In 5e cranium rat swarms are medium creatures so every rat in the swarm is in the same square. They can't be spread out and still be a swarm unless you are changing up the mechanics of the creature from the rules as written.

That said, in 5e cranium rats do not have any mention of strange glowy heads, they just can turn on a head mounted flashlight if they want to. Everything else related to them being strange looking or glowy is also changing up the mechanics of the creature from the rules as written.

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Yes, I rule that to use their psionic powers and heightened intellect the rats must be within 5 feet of each other. How many rats must be within range is not specified, but, as an individual has 2 hp and a swarm has 36 hp one can deduce that 18 rats form one swarm. Which isn't very many in a 5 foot cube.

It's worth noting that rats like high ground when it is available and can scurry up walls, hide on furniture, in cupboards or pipes, etc, so they may well be occupying a 3 dimensional space, depending on the location.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There's a difference between a stare and a constant, ceaseless vigil to find an opening. You can tell when the latter is happening.

No, you can't. As someone who gets constantly accused of staring at someone, when he isn't looking at them, you really can't.

He's getting sleep. He's not getting a long rest. I see no reason to give a level of exhaustion a day When rest is being had. He's just not getting enough to get a long rest.

Not how the rules work.

Xanathar's Guide

A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences. If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules.

Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

It becomes harder to fight off exhaustion if you stay awake for multiple days. After the first 24 hours, the DC increases by 5 for each consecutive 24-hour period without a long rest. The DC resets to 10 when you finish a long rest.

Second paragraph explicitly links not having a long rest to gaining levels of exhaustion.

If he could have escaped, he probably would have. He'd be bright enough not to fight to the death/unconsciousness.

Right, been arguing in the weeds long enough that you seem to have forgotten that part of escaping was knocking out or charming the Guard. Meaning that he isn't fighting to the death, he's trying to magic the guard into helping him escape, without raising the alarm.

Stick a helmet on their head. That was actually the rule in a few editions of D&D. Couldn't use psionics with a helmet on. Or the blindfold. Or keep him tortured to the point of being at the brink of death. Or, since Psions are incredibly rare, don't worry about it. From the Mystic PDF...

"Mystics are incredibly rare, and most prefer to keep the nature of their abilities secret."

1) Sticking a helmet on their head is not something was brought up until just now. Probably because you are realizing the problems with keeping them tortured and on the brink of death.

2) Being incredibly rare, even if it is true which as I'm discussing with Sabathius is not a guarantee (heck, even you don't agree, since this scenario could take place in Dark Sun) does not prevent this issue of them encountering one.

The blindfold might work. We discussed that, but it would then require a commitment to them not being able to cast while unable to see their target. Something which is in the air.

oh, and for a quick #3

3) Torturing a prisoner near to death, day after day while depriving them of sleep and beating them so they cannot run? That is evil. And if your response to containing a person must by necessity devolve into evil, then we have a problem.

 

[see]

(the oft misinterpreted saying "the exception proves the rule" is using the older definition of the word "prove" meaning "test").

No, it doesn't, that's just one more misinterpretation of the expression.

The origination of the saying is a worn-down translation of the medieval Latin "exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis" principle of legal construction, which, translated fully, would be "the exception proves the rule in cases not excepted". So a sign that says "Parking prohibited on Sundays" is proof of a general rule "parking usually allowed", because you would not need to post an exception for Sundays unless that were the general rule. This contrasts with the rules of formal logic, where "Parking prohibited on Sundays" tells you nothing about parking on Mondays.

It is true that "probat" can be translated as "tests" rather than "proves", but that doesn't make any sense when you add the "in casibus non exceptis" from the original phrase.

Applied to the 5e Monster Manual, that principle of construction would say that since "no components" is called out as an exception in each monster's individual case, that proves the underlying default rule is that "Innate Spellcasting (Psionics)" requires components. On the other hand, the usual approach from inductive logic is that when every example of X has feature Y, you assume Y is a general feature of all X.

Either approach would be equally valid, except that we have a specific statement on p.10 of the book saying that "A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells", which specifically informs you that it's merely typical for monsters with "Innate Spellcasting (Psionics)" to not need components, not that it's a universal rule of psionics.

 

[glass]

No, it doesn't, that's just one more misinterpretation of the expression.

Interesting, thank you. Having read a few more things on the subject, it appears one cannot be absolutely sure of the origin of the english phrase, but the "your" version ("our" version now, since you have convinced me) is considered massively more likely.

_
glass.

 

[Azzy]

And Gygax didn't create D&D psionics. Tim Kask, editor of Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry, created D&D psionics.

I had thought that it was Brian Blume who was responsible for the psionics rules. So, I used my Google-Fu to see if my memory failed me. Apparently, it did fail me: "Steve Marsh sent in another complete class, the mystic, a cleric based on Indian mysticism. It was combined with Gary Gygax's incomplete divine (or devine) class, who was a psionicist, and what came out of Tim Kask's development wasn't a class at all, but the psionics rules." That's a weird history.

 

[SkidAce]

And, this is the core problem to face. If Psions can be trained, and they can be so immensely powerful, everyone will want to train them. Or, barring that, kill them so that they cannot be used against them.

Why are you spying on my campaign?

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Why are you spying on my campaign?

Clearly, they're a telepath, and need to be exterminated with extreme prejudice.

Cheers, Al'kelhar