D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Maxperson]

Second paragraph explicitly links not having a long rest to gaining levels of exhaustion.

Well, dumb rules are dumb. If someone is getting 6 hours of rest, but not a long rest, I'm not going to hand out a level of exhaustion because a rule says so. As the rules say, the rules serve the DM, not the other way around.

Right, been arguing in the weeds long enough that you seem to have forgotten that part of escaping was knocking out or charming the Guard. Meaning that he isn't fighting to the death, he's trying to magic the guard into helping him escape, without raising the alarm.

The guard is a few feet from multiple other PCs, all of whom beat the snot out of the Psion. He's not going to be able to do that.

1) Sticking a helmet on their head is not something was brought up until just now. Probably because you are realizing the problems with keeping them tortured and on the brink of death.

Well, it was brought up a few pages ago. You commented(at least I think it was you) on how you didn't like that due to Psions wearing armor. It's also the traditional way to limit Psions. I wouldn't care if it was a blindfold or if both worked, though.

2) Being incredibly rare, even if it is true which as I'm discussing with Sabathius is not a guarantee (heck, even you don't agree, since this scenario could take place in Dark Sun) does not prevent this issue of them encountering one.

I just quoted it as being extremely rare. Basically, Psions don't have schools or colleges like Wizards do. You have to find the hermit hidden in a cave on the top of Mt. Hardtoclimb, then study for years.

3) Torturing a prisoner near to death, day after day while depriving them of sleep and beating them so they cannot run? That is evil. And if your response to containing a person must by necessity devolve into evil, then we have a problem.

If the Psion is being a fool and bringing it on himself by constantly attacking a superior force, he's just getting what he asked for. It's self-defense at that point, which is not evil.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, dumb rules are dumb. If someone is getting 6 hours of rest, but not a long rest, I'm not going to hand out a level of exhaustion because a rule says so. As the rules say, the rules serve the DM, not the other way around.

Well, the argument of "it isn't a problem if I homebrew it not to be a problem" is not exactly the most convincing one. Especially from you, since you tend to enjoy RAW so very much when you agree with it.

The guard is a few feet from multiple other PCs, all of whom beat the snot out of the Psion. He's not going to be able to do that.

Right, because abilities like Charm, Dominate, Sleep, Suggestion, Hold Person, and the like completely do not exist. You know, things that if cast silently would turn the guard into a willing accomplice (no alarm), a non-issue (no alarm) or unable to act or move (no alarm)

Whether or not the Psion could get away after whatever they do depends on the ability, but some of these abilities last up to an hour.

Well, it was brought up a few pages ago. You commented(at least I think it was you) on how you didn't like that due to Psions wearing armor. It's also the traditional way to limit Psions. I wouldn't care if it was a blindfold or if both worked, though.

Yes, someone else brought it up. They were not proposing it for our hypothetical situation. That last post being the first time this "Psion Prisoner being transported" scenario was proposed that wearing a metal helmet might cancel their powers.

I consider that you had to finally bring up something like this as proof that there needs to be some way to counter psions though, since you are likely beginning to see my problem.

I just quoted it as being extremely rare. Basically, Psions don't have schools or colleges like Wizards do. You have to find the hermit hidden in a cave on the top of Mt. Hardtoclimb, then study for years.

Or you don't. Instead you go to the NOT!Jedi academy and get taught by the order. Or you have a tribe of desert people or a cult who have unlocked the secrets and every member and child is taught them. Or there is a secret government program to abduct children and train them as psychic assassins for infiltration missions.

You can't just declare "Psions don't have schools or colleges" when some of the most well known plots involving Psychics involve exactly that. Schools, colleges, monasteries, ect.

If the Psion is being a fool and bringing it on himself by constantly attacking a superior force, he's just getting what he asked for. It's self-defense at that point, which is not evil.

So, it is self defense to beat and torture a man who is excersising Self-Defense against the people who beat him, tied him up, and started dragging him off somewhere against his will.

I'm going to go with no. No, that isn't how I would see that situation.

Also, again, this is just a bad narrative dichotomy. Either the Psion is meek, and does not resist being taken against their will. Or you must beat and torture them until they are unable to resist you. Until we implement other rules to stop Psionic abilities via easily obtainable ways, these are the only two options.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, the argument of "it isn't a problem if I homebrew it not to be a problem" is not exactly the most convincing one. Especially from you, since you tend to enjoy RAW so very much when you agree with it.

I think pretty much everyone enjoys RAW when they agree with it and don't enjoy it when they don't.

Right, because abilities like Charm, Dominate, Sleep, Suggestion, Hold Person, and the like completely do not exist. You know, things that if cast silently would turn the guard into a willing accomplice (no alarm), a non-issue (no alarm) or unable to act or move (no alarm)

Whether or not the Psion could get away after whatever they do depends on the ability, but some of these abilities last up to an hour.

Charm is worthless in this situation. It doesn't even turn the victim into a friend. It only turns them into a friendly acquaintance, like that guy you met once at a party. You aren't going to let a dangerous prisoner go because he asked you to as a friendly acquaintance, especially if it risks your actual friends.

If he's using Sleep, everyone is low enough level that he probably has no more uses after the combat he was captured ended.

Hold person is good for a few seconds, but not long enough to get away.

Dominate likely already failed if he has it.

Yes, someone else brought it up. They were not proposing it for our hypothetical situation. That last post being the first time this "Psion Prisoner being transported" scenario was proposed that wearing a metal helmet might cancel their powers.

I consider that you had to finally bring up something like this as proof that there needs to be some way to counter psions though, since you are likely beginning to see my problem.

No. I'm just trying to help you out. I don't see this as a problem, but rather a challenge for a group to figure out like any other puzzle or challenge.

Or you don't. Instead you go to the NOT!Jedi academy and get taught by the order. Or you have a tribe of desert people or a cult who have unlocked the secrets and every member and child is taught them. Or there is a secret government program to abduct children and train them as psychic assassins for infiltration missions.

Sure. If you want to change things in your setting to make them more common. The UA Mystic lore, though, makes them what I said and incredibly rare.

You can't just declare "Psions don't have schools or colleges" when some of the most well known plots involving Psychics involve exactly that. Schools, colleges, monasteries, ect.

Not me. 5e declared it.

So, it is self defense to beat and torture a man who is excersising Self-Defense against the people who beat him, tied him up, and started dragging him off somewhere against his will.

It wasn't self-defense for the Psion unless the party is already evil, in which case torture and beatings are par for the course.

Also, again, this is just a bad narrative dichotomy. Either the Psion is meek, and does not resist being taken against their will. Or you must beat and torture them until they are unable to resist you. Until we implement other rules to stop Psionic abilities via easily obtainable ways, these are the only two options.

That's a False Dichotomy. You can also sleep deprive them and restore exhaustion via spells. And I'm sure there are other options. It just takes some creativity.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Dominate likely already failed if he has it.

What? Why are we assuming the ability fails when he uses it? What kind of sense does that even make?

No. I'm just trying to help you out. I don't see this as a problem, but rather a challenge for a group to figure out like any other puzzle or challenge.

The "challenge" seems to be to find a way other than torture. With very limited options available. And the chances of them not including rules like the 3.5 metal helmet are pretty high

Sure. If you want to change things in your setting to make them more common. The UA Mystic lore, though, makes them what I said and incredibly rare.

Not me. 5e declared it.

Sigh

The Mystic was a playtest document. It was not the final version. It is not official material. Considering the Mystic was completely rejected, and has been officially stated to not make it into the game, using that to inform the lore of whatever Psion class we might get would be a mistake.

Additionally, even if it was official, the ability to turn things into an organization is completely part of the setting. And a place like Ravinica or Eberron or Dark Sun would have perfect thematic space for them.

So, 5e declared nothing. It has a rejected playtest document that is no longer being considered for publication. Using that to declare that Psions (who aren't mystics) have no schools or organizations and require finding mad sages is completely baseless.

That's a False Dichotomy. You can also sleep deprive them and restore exhaustion via spells. And I'm sure there are other options. It just takes some creativity.

Enforced Sleep Deprivation is torture. It does get them "near death" which is why you need to support their body with 5th level magic (Greater Restoration) to prevent them from dying due to it.

So, your example doesn't disprove my point. You are basically saying "you don't have to torture them, you can torture them instead, and keep them alive via miracles" (Miracles being a stand in term for divine magic, since most arcane magic cannot heal exhaustion)

Oh, and Greater Restoration costs 100 gp of diamond dust per casting. So lets not forget that part.

It wasn't self-defense for the Psion unless the party is already evil, in which case torture and beatings are par for the course.

How can it possibly be seen that a person who was attacked, kidnapped, and forcibly reloacted against their will cannot claim self-defense for fighting back against their attackers?

I guess we need to lay out some obvious facts.

1) The player characters are not cops. At absolute, absolute most they are unlicensed bounty hunters.

2) Being a criminal does not strip away your right to defend yourself. Just because the Duke sends you to track down a Psion who stole from them, does not mean that the Psion has lost all rights to their health and well-being. This is why it is illegal and immoral and plain wrong for law enforcement officers to beat prisoners.

3) Mens Rea. "the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime". Knowledge comes into play. The PCs may claim to have legitimate authority, but should the Psion believe them? When they broke into their home without warning, weapons drawn? When instead of telling the Psion that they had legitimate authority, they simply attacked with overwhelming force? Show them a document, and the Psion can rightly point out that with a 9th level spellcaster in the party, forging a document is trivially easy.

There are dozens of scenarios where it is possible for the PCs not to be evil, and yet the Psion has every justification to resist and try to escape. Again, if this was a scenario where you were dealing with an obviously evil individual who does not have the right to defend themselves... you probably have an execution order instead of a retrieval order.

 

[Maxperson]

What? Why are we assuming the ability fails when he uses it? What kind of sense does that even make?

Because if he had it, he likely used it on the party during the fight and got beat down anyway. He isn't going to be winning a fight against them with it when he's in even worse shape and they are fine.

The "challenge" seems to be to find a way other than torture. With very limited options available. And the chances of them not including rules like the 3.5 metal helmet are pretty high

There challenge is to get him there alive.

The Mystic was a playtest document. It was not the final version. It is not official material. Considering the Mystic was completely rejected, and has been officially stated to not make it into the game, using that to inform the lore of whatever Psion class we might get would be a mistake.

Additionally, even if it was official, the ability to turn things into an organization is completely part of the setting. And a place like Ravinica or Eberron or Dark Sun would have perfect thematic space for them.

The UA shows their thought process. If a specific setting alters that, then it does. However, the original Dark Sun didn't have psionic schools, either. Full Psions were not found under every rock.

Enforced Sleep Deprivation is torture. It does get them "near death" which is why you need to support their body with 5th level magic (Greater Restoration) to prevent them from dying due to it.

So first, there is no real sleep deprivation. 6 hours of sleep is plenty. Second, there is no near death. You literally have to get what? 4 levels of exhaustion before you are near death? At 1 level you are a little tired and nothing more. Greater Restoration removes that bit of tiredness. Making someone a little sleepy is not torture.

Oh, and Greater Restoration costs 100 gp of diamond dust per casting. So lets not forget that part.

No worries! By that time you have more money than you know what to do with, so 500 or 1000 gold worth of diamonds is pocket change.

How can it possibly be seen that a person who was attacked, kidnapped, and forcibly reloacted against their will cannot claim self-defense for fighting back against their attackers?

The same way murderers don't get to claim self-defense from the police when the cops do the same thing to the murderers.

The Psion is in a similar position and/or initiated the attack. Unless the PCs are evil already, in which case maybe he was defending himself. Of course evil PCs will just kill or torture a Psion who is attacking them constantly.

1) The player characters are not cops. At absolute, absolute most they are unlicensed bounty hunters.

Wow. I've been in and run several groups that were legally able to go after criminals, and dozens more who were sent after bad guys by the local lord or sheriff.

Your "absolute most" falls way short of the mark.

2) Being a criminal does not strip away your right to defend yourself. Just because the Duke sends you to track down a Psion who stole from them, does not mean that the Psion has lost all rights to their health and well-being. This is why it is illegal and immoral and plain wrong for law enforcement officers to beat prisoners.

Criminals don't get to claim self-defense. A criminal who chooses to fight rather than surrender is charged with crimes for it.

3) Mens Rea. "the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime". Knowledge comes into play. The PCs may claim to have legitimate authority, but should the Psion believe them? When they broke into their home without warning, weapons drawn? When instead of telling the Psion that they had legitimate authority, they simply attacked with overwhelming force? Show them a document, and the Psion can rightly point out that with a 9th level spellcaster in the party, forging a document is trivially easy.

Criminals also don't get to use that as an excuse.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Yes, I rule that to use their psionic powers and heightened intellect the rats must be within 5 feet of each other. How many rats must be within range is not specified, but, as an individual has 2 hp and a swarm has 36 hp one can deduce that 18 rats form one swarm. Which isn't very many in a 5 foot cube.

It's worth noting that rats like high ground when it is available and can scurry up walls, hide on furniture, in cupboards or pipes, etc, so they may well be occupying a 3 dimensional space, depending on the location.

This is going to be another case of "It's your game, play how you want".

As I stated previously, a rat swarm in the rules is a distinct entity from 18 individual rats sharing the same space. They are distinct in description and distinct in abilities. 18 rats would have 18 HP, 18 +0 attacks that do 1HP of damage each. 1 rat swarm consisting of 18 rats would have 24HP, 1 +2 attack that did 2d6 or 1d6 damage, a boatload of immunities, and resistance to damage.

In my opinion, as a GM, in order to be fair to the players it would be necessary to describe the rats presented as an encounter as either being 18 individual or 1 swarm. The players need to have this information in order to plan and execute combat. Narratively, there is no difference between 18 individual rats and 1 swarm, but for application of the rules of 5e there is a distinct difference and I think its unfair to the players to not point it out.

If you, as a GM, do not think its appropriate to disclose that this is a swarm versus individuals then you are welcome to do so in your game. I'm not telling you that you are doing it wrong, i'm just telling you that I think that choice unfairly allows the cranium rats (in the specific example we are discussing) to go unnoticed as a potential opponent and because of this it is a poor example of how componentless casting can be unnoticable.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Except, the art has never shown them stacked 5 ft high. They are generally shown as covering a 5x5 area. And that makes a huge difference. After all, an snake is generally considered lower to the ground, and five feet long. Not filling a 5x5x5 area.

The art also shows rats that have clearly exposed brains that are glowing blue, so art is just art and not translatable to the rules or mandatory description.

As far as 5' stacked high...thats not what I am saying. I am saying the rats need to have a similar mass as a medium creature. If a standard human weighs 120lbs in the world, and a rat weighed 3lbs, then there could be 40 rats in a 5X5X5 cube to be considered medium. Since the rats aren't flying or clinging to the walls when in the middle of the room, then this means that you have a 5X5 square on the floor covered with 40 rats.

As I just stated to @Paul Farquhar a rat swarm is a distinct entity from individual rats. When a GM fails to disclose the fact its a swarm, and instead paints the picture of there just being individual rats then they are deciding to give the rats a free hide-in-plain-sight and auto pass stealth check ability. If the GM wants to do this in their game, then I have no problem with that choice. I'm just asking that we acknowledge that as part of the discussion.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because if he had it, he likely used it on the party during the fight and got beat down anyway. He isn't going to be winning a fight against them with it when he's in even worse shape and they are fine.

Max, you do realize that there is a difference in using Dominate Person on one person out of six, during an open brawl, and using it on one person while they are standing guard over you and everyone else is asleep, right?

Yeah, it might have only made the battle more difficult to have the dominated person fighting their friends, but when you are one on one, that ability ends the fight.

The UA shows their thought process. If a specific setting alters that, then it does. However, the original Dark Sun didn't have psionic schools, either. Full Psions were not found under every rock.

The UA shows a thought, and one that was rejected. You still cannot use it to claim that they are going to say that Psions cannot be taught.

And, when I played Dark Sun, there were multiple monasteries full of psionic characters. A monastery functions like a school. New initiates are tuaght by older adepts and full fledged members.

But, this is pointless, because you still have no proof.

So first, there is no real sleep deprivation. 6 hours of sleep is plenty. Second, there is no near death. You literally have to get what? 4 levels of exhaustion before you are near death? At 1 level you are a little tired and nothing more. Greater Restoration removes that bit of tiredness. Making someone a little sleepy is not torture.

1) We already discussed that the rules state that you gain exhaustion for not finishing a long rest. If you want to claim that gaining a mechanical penalty for lack of sleep should not be called sleep deprivation... that is on you. I'm talking from the rules.

2) I mentioned in that quote, which is only two sentences long, that you need to support their body with magic to prevent eventual death. Saying that you only gave them one level, then removed it, doesn't change my point. If you did not cast a healing spell on them every day, they would die from your action. This is like claiming you aren't starving a person because you injected Nutrient Paste into their system every few days so they don't die from the lack of food.

The same way murderers don't get to claim self-defense from the police when the cops do the same thing to the murderers.

The Psion is in a similar position and/or initiated the attack. Unless the PCs are evil already, in which case maybe he was defending himself. Of course evil PCs will just kill or torture a Psion who is attacking them constantly.

Wow. I've been in and run several groups that were legally able to go after criminals, and dozens more who were sent after bad guys by the local lord or sheriff.

Your "absolute most" falls way short of the mark.

Criminals don't get to claim self-defense. A criminal who chooses to fight rather than surrender is charged with crimes for it.

Criminals also don't get to use that as an excuse.

Your lack of understanding of the law is a bit surprising here. Now, I acknowledge, fantasy law in medieval worlds, things get tricky when comparing to modern law, but you have major gaps here.

Mens Rea is a cornerstone of the law. Saying "Criminals don't get to use that as an excuse" is purely ignorant of the concept. This is why there is a difference between the various degrees of murder and manslaughter. There are hundreds of instances of this in criminal and civil law. Just for an example, you cannot be charged with Bribery if you can demonstrate a lack of Mens Rea. The crime is literally impossible to commit, if you do not know what the crime is and what you are doing is considered that crime.

A criminal who chooses to fight instead of surrender to the lawful authorities can get charged crimes for it. But, a criminal who fights back against unknown, unmarked assailants who happen to be law enforcement can sue those people and charge them with assault with a deadly weapon, battery, criminal trespassing and kidnapping. This is why the police where identification, why they have to announce themselves. They can completely claim self-defense under a situation where they were attacked without warning, by armed men who did not identify themselves.

And now we get to that last part, which is your first part, that the PCs can be ordered by a local lord or sheriff to go and stop criminals.

Yeah, that is what a bounty hunter is. Unless your group is part of the local watch, with a badge of authority, and their job is solely to stop criminals, then what you have described is not law enforcement. Do they have a legal backing? Sure, but since they can be any scrubs off the street, there is no reasonable reason to assume that they are telling the truth. They could just as easily be slavers as they could be legitimate authorities of the local sheriff.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The art also shows rats that have clearly exposed brains that are glowing blue, so art is just art and not translatable to the rules or mandatory description.

As far as 5' stacked high...thats not what I am saying. I am saying the rats need to have a similar mass as a medium creature. If a standard human weighs 120lbs in the world, and a rat weighed 3lbs, then there could be 40 rats in a 5X5X5 cube to be considered medium. Since the rats aren't flying or clinging to the walls when in the middle of the room, then this means that you have a 5X5 square on the floor covered with 40 rats.

As I just stated to @Paul Farquhar a rat swarm is a distinct entity from individual rats. When a GM fails to disclose the fact its a swarm, and instead paints the picture of there just being individual rats then they are deciding to give the rats a free hide-in-plain-sight and auto pass stealth check ability. If the GM wants to do this in their game, then I have no problem with that choice. I'm just asking that we acknowledge that as part of the discussion.

Okay, but this was in the context of them being able to hide in the walls. Not the GM describing or not describing them standing in the middle of the hallway.

Yes, if the rats are standing in the middle of a room, with nothing else around them, I would remiss to not refer to them as a swarm.

But, if the player only sees one rat poking their nose out of a wall, am I remiss to not mention the other 39 rats the player can't see inside the wall? If I say they see five rats crawling around some boxes and barrels stacked up in a corner, should I describe it as two swarms of rats while the other 75 rats are hiding in the barrels or boxes the players can't see into?

A similar mass does not mean they can't take advantage of the fact that they are individual rats, and can stay within close proximity while the majority of them are out of sight.

 

[Remathilis]

The dual debates about the psion in prison and cranium rats has convinced me WotC did the best possible thing by making psionics spells...