D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Azzy]

If you are going to say that...

1. Psionics is different from spells

And

2. I'm bored with 5e and want something new

...are both not good arguments then I'm not sure what else is going to sway you.

Neither of those are good arguments for a skill and feat system, though.... 1) Even if we were to concede that psionics and magic need to have different mechanical subsystems in order to be "different" (given my experience with non-D&D TTRPGs, I do not concede this at all, but this is for sake of the argument), this argument only argues for mechanical differentiation, not for a skill and feat system. 2) This is an argument to play something other than 5e, not to include psionics as a skill and feat system in D&D.

So, yes, I'm going to say that both of those are not good arguments for implementing psionics as a skill and feat system in 5e D&D. But if you were actually intent to "sway" me, I'd suggest actually speaking to the merits of a skill and feat system, how to overcome the inherent limitations that such a system would have to surmount given 5e's mechanics for skills and feats, why such an implementation would be better than some other mechanical subsystem, and, finally, why psionics needs such a greatly different mechanical subsystem when slightly modifying the existing mechanics for magic would be simpler, internally consistent, easier for players to learn, and easier to balance against existing mechanics.

 

[Maxperson]

@Chaosmancer

"If they can be taught, then there is no reason the Hermit can't make "School Mount Hardtofind" and teach classes down in the local monastery. Which means your entire point of "Psions don't have schools or colleges, so they are rare" again, without support."

You mean no reason other than it has been shown to be the official thought process of WotC. It is just fluff, so you'd be free to create your own problem and make them common, but I don't know why you'd want to do that.

Not sure what else I would call "consistently depriving someone of adequate sleep, to the point of health problems" other than Sleep Deprivation. And the rules clearly tell us that Six hours of sleep is not plenty in the lands of DnD, because you will die from about a week of that. But, you don't seem to care about what the rules say, and instead want to insert your own interpretation, and I am done arguing this point.

I don't, either, but then I'm not suggesting anything that causes health problems. Calling one level of exhaustion, which is nothing more than being a bit tired, a "health problem" is a bit dramatic don't you think?

No, giving a prisoner a glass of water is not torture. Intentionally depriving them of water for multiple days, to make them more pliable, until you need to give them a glass of water to keep them barely alive, is torture. Just because you heroically swoop in to make sure they don't die does not mean that your actions are moral.

And, "slightly sleepy" is a fun little euphemism you've started to create here. But, the exhaustion mechanic is not for "I'm a little worn out today". Especially since it can kill the individual. You are depriving them of sleep. Sleep Deprivation.

There's no euphemism involved. I've gone without ANY sleep many days in my life. I've been tired. No health problems involved. No torture involved. I've even occasionally had an energy drink(greater restoration). Big deal. And by big deal I mean it's not a big deal at all. And that's with 0 sleep for 1 day. I'm suggesting giving the Psion plenty of sleep. You're being overly dramatic with your "torture" and "health problems."

Edit: This also reminds me of the discussion from a while back about whether or not it was considered torture to cut the limbs off of a captive, if you plan on having them regenerated when you get back to the city. That was wrong. This is wrong.

Yep. I agree with your assessment there. It's also a gross False Equivalence, too.

The Psion might have no way of knowing if the people who show up are bs'ing or not. And even if he knows that the heavily armed men and women aren't farmers (shocked gasp) they could be...

Then that Psion has an Int score of under 7. He's quite frankly, stupid.

P.S. You don't have to put in (quote) anymore. You just go to the point that you want to start typing and hit ENTER.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Neither of those are good arguments for a skill and feat system, though.... 1) Even if we were to concede that psionics and magic need to have different mechanical subsystems in order to be "different" (given my experience with non-D&D TTRPGs, I do not concede this at all, but this is for sake of the argument), this argument only argues for mechanical differentiation, not for a skill and feat system. 2) This is an argument to play something other than 5e, not to include psionics as a skill and feat system in D&D.

So, yes, I'm going to say that both of those are not good arguments for implementing psionics as a skill and feat system in 5e D&D. But if you were actually intent to "sway" me, I'd suggest actually speaking to the merits of a skill and feat system, how to overcome the inherent limitations that such a system would have to surmount given 5e's mechanics for skills and feats, why such an implementation would be better than some other mechanical subsystem, and, finally, why psionics needs such a greatly different mechanical subsystem when slightly modifying the existing mechanics for magic would be simpler, internally consistent, easier for players to learn, and easier to balance against existing mechanics.

To which I reply that they are a good enough argument for a skill and feat system.

So we can add our two opposed opinions to the sea of others and wait patiently to see which 5e decided to fish out when the book arrived.

 

[Shardstone]

I have no idea why people are speculating about what'll be in Tasha's when they already confirmed it was the Psionic Soul + spells.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I have yet to see a good argument against having a skill and feat based psionics system instead of a spell-based system. The proficiency system has been improved in 5E over 2E, systems like the Star Wars Force rules were balanced and easily expandable. A system like this would be integrated into the existing rules out of the box, aside from a telepathic combat system no new rules would be needed.

You must remember a different Star Wars than I do. The last WotC version, SAGA, was a great game, but it was consistently remarked how easily it was to break the Force skill system even at low levels.

 

[Azzy]

To which I reply that they are a good enough argument for a skill and feat system.

Considering that neither of them are actually arguments that address the inclusion of a skill and feat system in any objective measure, I'm not sure why you would find them "good enough". But that's all you.

So we can add our two opposed opinions to the sea of others and wait patiently to see which 5e decided to fish out when the book arrived.

I'm not exactly sure what your opinion is (aside from your vague response that seems to put you in favor of a skill and feat system). The only opinions that I've shared on the matter of a skill and feat system is that 5e's mechanics are inherently not conducive to a the implementation of such a system (given the limitations of its "skill system" and how feats work in this edition), and that D&D (like other TTRPGs I've enncountered) doesn't actually need a drastically different mechanic to create a distinction between psionics and magic.

Neither your opinion nor mine is going to get any vindication from Tasha's. From what we know of Tasha's is that there isn't going to be a psion/psionicist class (I think we both agree that this sucks), instead we are going to get a sorcerer subclass (there may be subclasses for other classes, but those haven't been confirmed) and that the psionic powers are spells that can be cast by the(se) subclass(es).

Whether there will be a dedicated psionic class that appears in some later publication (like a Dark Sun setting book)—while we can hope for it, is nothing more than optimistic speculation at this point. If such a class does appear in future, it will likely use the psionic powers as spells as presented in Tasha's.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Considering that neither of them are actually arguments that address the inclusion of a skill and feat system in any objective measure, I'm not sure why you would find them "good enough". But that's all you.

They are good enough for me because they reflect the interests and desires of the person who made them. It's not my job to vet a proposed system or solution so that it upholds to some standard before I begrudgingly stamp it "Good Enough". I can agree or disagree. I can find some fault with it. I can say I think its a horrible idea, but that doesn't somehow negate what the other person is saying.

I don't find the feat and skill framework unsuited for being stretched and used in a different fashion than it already is. If you dumped a bunch of psion abilites into the feat system, created a base class that gave Psion tagged feats as level up bonuses aside from the ASI bumps, and then tied the "to hit" and "Save DC" numbers for your feat choices into your skills you would have a mechanically distinct and playable psion. Whether or not this the best choice, or even if I like this method of doing it, is not related to the fact that I can easily see it being created in a way that meshed well with the rest of the rules of 5e.

Only barely related siderant about 5e design principles
At this point I have given up hope that 5e is ever going to deliver something mechanically interesting. I think the only thing that is going to open that door is if sales fall off the cliff and all the new players making 5e sell like hotcakes move on to something different. If the game were to crash in that way (due to no fault of the system, just the whims of the public interest) I can see them having to start marketing products toward the more devout long time fans.

In many ways, and as a fan of both, I see a lot of parallels between where 5e is now in design philosophy and where Warhammer 40k went with its design philosophy in between 2nd and 3rd edition of its game. (talking 40k here) When 3e was released it was generally seen as a good move. The gameplay was very much streamlined from 2e, getting rid of all the really strange bits and making a playable game that was fast but allowed for most of the units and items that were found in 2e. Over time, however, the new fans were still happy with the additions toward the game but the older fans noticed that the interesting bit or bob that they liked from 2e never showed back up. The simplicity that formed a basis for a new and streamlined game was a good start to the older fans, but the design philosophy of sticking with that simplicity drove some people away from the game. Games Workshop did a simple calculation that new fans dropping $$$ on new models are a better revenue stream than keeping the old fans happy so they just left the old fans to change or move on. I chose to move on when 4e was released and it was a simple revision of the simplicity of 3e.

Moving forward in time....9th edition just came out which is a simple revision of 8th edition. 8th edition was a big rules revamp and sparked my interested into buying a rulebook after an absence of 15+ years from following the game. Somewhere between 4th and 8th Games Workshop realized that while onboarding new players is great, the big fans are the ones who buy every book even when they don't necessarily even play the army. With 8th the rulesset STILL remained accessible to new players. The core game rules were very simple and a pair of first timers can get through a game with their basic units with little trouble. They added in, however, options to please the old fans. Obscure items came back with rules to support them. The new player didn't have to know how some $600 special order model worked on the tabletop because they didn't have to interact with it at their table. They could buy and play the simplest most basic units and armies and have fun not learning 50000 other rules, but the player who has been collecting for 20+ years can still break out his strange item, find rules to represent it on the table in an interesting way, and play the game that they want as well.

This is where in my opinion 5e is failing (as a game design for established players, not as a moneymaker), and why I am not hopeful for its future barring some radical change of gears. At some point they have decided to design some items by committee via online playtests and surveys. The sole item that seems to get funneled through this process seems to be crunch, and within the last couple years seems to be character class crunch. The design by committee is great at producing mediocre and uninspiring new subclasses that slightly push the envelope of what a class can be and seem to shut down any attempt at injecting something completely new and exciting into a stale 5 year old system. So, theoretically, what we are going to see whenever the Tasha's book comes out for players to consume is 17? new subclasses to add to the classes we already have that are slight variations of things we have already seen (via the playtests) and in some cases have already played (for the tables that incorporate the playtests into their normal games). This isn't new and exciting, its just getting the final Power Point of the TPS report we submitted our data for last fiscal year.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You mean no reason other than it has been shown to be the official thought process of WotC. It is just fluff, so you'd be free to create your own problem and make them common, but I don't know why you'd want to do that.

I mean, just decades of inspiration from Fiction.

Also, while you keep repeating your point, you keep missing that that point is meaningless.

1) This is for the Mystic. Not the Psion.

2) You keep saying it "shows the official thought process" while neglecting to realize it shows the process from five years ago. Even without point #3, this alone is a red-flag, because I sure hope their thought process has evolved over the entire life span of the game.

3) The Mystic was rejected. The Mechanics were rejected. The Fluff was rejected. The Thought Process you keep pointing to, was rejected. So, what possible reason do we have to believe that they will continue with that thought process without changing it? None. There is no reason to assume that.

4) Even if the Mystic were the Psion, and even if this was a current thought proccess, and even if it had not been thoroughly rejected, the concept of a "school of Psions" being trained at a secret or remote installation or school is one of the two biggest Psionic tropes in Fiction. Even your "find an ancient hermit master" style of story often features the hermit running a monastery in the mountains. So, discarding it is a fairly bold move. Especially since the other most common trope is wild uncontrollable powers. Which was a trope also rejected when we had the Psi Die playtest.

So, again, you have no real evidence, just an assertion that a rejected playtest "shows their thoughts" on a constantly evolving project years in the making. Which is not convincing, as anyone who follows movie production could tell you.

I don't, either, but then I'm not suggesting anything that causes health problems. Calling one level of exhaustion, which is nothing more than being a bit tired, a "health problem" is a bit dramatic don't you think?

A single level of exhaustion is disadvantage on all ability checks.

Another thing that causes disadvantage on all ability checks is being poisoned. The other I can find with a casual search is being so terrified of something that you physically cannot move closer to it.

Looking at those two, and comparing it to how exhausted I feel I would have to be to be equally disadvantaged in anything I was doing, I think calling it "a bit tired" is wrong. And, considering one of the comparable other conditions is literal poison, I think a "health problem" is in fact accurate.

There's no euphemism involved. I've gone without ANY sleep many days in my life. I've been tired. No health problems involved. No torture involved. I've even occasionally had an energy drink(greater restoration). Big deal. And by big deal I mean it's not a big deal at all. And that's with 0 sleep for 1 day. I'm suggesting giving the Psion plenty of sleep. You're being overly dramatic with your "torture" and "health problems."

What is the opposite of the "Man at the Gym" Fallacy?

Because Max, what you are refusing to acknowledge is that the Real World =/= the DnD world. I'm approaching this with the effects the rules give us by RAW. You are trying to apply real world logic to the game, and ignoring the rules as they are written.

Which hey, that is your choice. But, if you keep trying to argue from the position of how sleep and sleep deprivation works in the real world, then there is no point in continuing this discussion, because you are refusing to engage with the facts of the situation.

Then that Psion has an Int score of under 7. He's quite frankly, stupid.

I'm not sure if you missed my sarcasm (I thought the shocked gasp was quite obvious) or if you are saying that any person with an intelligence higher than an ape (INT 6) can tell that people are telling the truth at a glance.

The idea of heavily armed men and women with platemail, swords, and magic being farmers is stupid on the face of it. So your claim that "he's going to know that some random group of farmers isn't going to make the claim that they are there to take him in" was stupid on the face of it. Obviously they aren't farmers.

Not being farmers does not immediately make them law enforcement though. And, as shocking as this may sound, criminals, slavers, cultists (the list I made before?) they might lie and say they are working for a legitimate authority.

And we are talking the world of DnD where Illusory Script is a low level ritual. They could easily wave a piece of official looking paper and say "Duke such and such has sent us to bring you in for questioning" while in fact they are not under the authority of the Duke, and are in fact kidnapping the Psion.

And INT of 7 isn't going to tell you if they are real authorities or fake ones. And considering some of the other likely actions of the PCs (like bursting into the Psion's abode, armed to the teeth, and striking first as PCs are wont to do) believing they are acting inside the scope of the law is a stretch by itself.

P.S. You don't have to put in (quote) anymore. You just go to the point that you want to start typing and hit ENTER.

Ah, thank you

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, just decades of inspiration from Fiction.

Also, while you keep repeating your point, you keep missing that that point is meaningless.

1) This is for the Mystic. Not the Psion.

2) You keep saying it "shows the official thought process" while neglecting to realize it shows the process from five years ago. Even without point #3, this alone is a red-flag, because I sure hope their thought process has evolved over the entire life span of the game.

3) The Mystic was rejected. The Mechanics were rejected. The Fluff was rejected. The Thought Process you keep pointing to, was rejected. So, what possible reason do we have to believe that they will continue with that thought process without changing it? None. There is no reason to assume that.

4) Even if the Mystic were the Psion, and even if this was a current thought proccess, and even if it had not been thoroughly rejected, the concept of a "school of Psions" being trained at a secret or remote installation or school is one of the two biggest Psionic tropes in Fiction. Even your "find an ancient hermit master" style of story often features the hermit running a monastery in the mountains. So, discarding it is a fairly bold move. Especially since the other most common trope is wild uncontrollable powers. Which was a trope also rejected when we had the Psi Die playtest.

So, again, you have no real evidence, just an assertion that a rejected playtest "shows their thoughts" on a constantly evolving project years in the making. Which is not convincing, as anyone who follows movie production could tell you.

The Mystic was absolutely the Psion. All you have to do is look at it an the Psion class to see that it was 5e's version with a new name.

And the Mystic is in fact, real evidence. How strong that evidence is, is the only question.

A single level of exhaustion is disadvantage on all ability checks.

Another thing that causes disadvantage on all ability checks is being poisoned. The other I can find with a casual search is being so terrified of something that you physically cannot move closer to it.

Looking at those two, and comparing it to how exhausted I feel I would have to be to be equally disadvantaged in anything I was doing, I think calling it "a bit tired" is wrong. And, considering one of the comparable other conditions is literal poison, I think a "health problem" is in fact accurate.

If someone is a tired, their reactions are slowed(disadvantage on ability checks). One level of exhaustion isn't even enough to slow someone down.

What is the opposite of the "Man at the Gym" Fallacy?

Man Who Doesn't Exercise?

Because Max, what you are refusing to acknowledge is that the Real World =/= the DnD world. I'm approaching this with the effects the rules give us by RAW. You are trying to apply real world logic to the game, and ignoring the rules as they are written.

Which hey, that is your choice. But, if you keep trying to argue from the position of how sleep and sleep deprivation works in the real world, then there is no point in continuing this discussion, because you are refusing to engage with the facts of the situation.

Not really. I'm just going by what it does. It doesn't take much tiredness to cause slowed reactions and thought, which equates to disadvantage on everything. Going by nothing but the rules, all it is is a bit of lost sleep. And heck, lack of sleep doesn't even give any exhaustion unless you invoke the optional rule from Xanathar's, and even then it probably takes 2-3 days before you suffer exhaustion.

Here you are saying that the game doesn't equate to the real world, and you have to invoke the optional rule that makes it more like the real world in order for lack of sleep to even have the chance to exhaust you. After 2-3 days without sleep, you'd have disadvantage, too.

 

[Samloyal23]

You must remember a different Star Wars than I do. The last WotC version, SAGA, was a great game, but it was consistently remarked how easily it was to break the Force skill system even at low levels.

Look at the d20 version, earlier than the SAGA rules, not to be confused with the d6 West End Games version.