D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Shardstone]

The dual debates about the psion in prison and cranium rats has convinced me WotC did the best possible thing by making psionics spells...

Yeah I'm super agreeing now. It feels like people who don't like psionics will go really far to try and convince others they are OP, and people who really love psionics from the past just want some past old systems.

Class features, feats, and spells are the best ways to put out Psionics without a doubt. You could make a whole psionics system I'm fairly sure, with only SOME overlap with spells, but it'd have to be a lot different than anything seen before to maintain 5E's design integrity.

 

[Maxperson]

The dual debates about the psion in prison and cranium rats has convinced me WotC did the best possible thing by making psionics spells...

They didnt, though. They only made some spells with a psionic aspect to them. At least as far as we know. The book may shed more light on this.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Okay, but this was in the context of them being able to hide in the walls. Not the GM describing or not describing them standing in the middle of the hallway.

Yes, if the rats are standing in the middle of a room, with nothing else around them, I would remiss to not refer to them as a swarm.

But, if the player only sees one rat poking their nose out of a wall, am I remiss to not mention the other 39 rats the player can't see inside the wall? If I say they see five rats crawling around some boxes and barrels stacked up in a corner, should I describe it as two swarms of rats while the other 75 rats are hiding in the barrels or boxes the players can't see into?

A similar mass does not mean they can't take advantage of the fact that they are individual rats, and can stay within close proximity while the majority of them are out of sight.

I'm not going to speak for the specifics of @Paul Farquhar's adventure, but they haven't yet explained it as the rats hiding inside the walls and peeking out. They described them as the rats hiding amongst the normal background rats that can be found in any sewer system.

All that aside....this conversation has veered so far from discussing psionics that it's not really adding anything to the conversation. A wizard hiding behind a wall in a crowded marketplace could just as easily cast Dominate Monster through a peephole and remain unnoticed so we are really discussing something unrelated to psionics and componentless casting when discussing the cranium rat scenario. With you definition of how hard it is to notice the rat swarm at all they could have been using V, S, and M casting components and the players still wouldn't have had a chance to notice them...because its just one rat squeaking and shuffling its little unseen rat hands.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not going to speak for the specifics of @Paul Farquhar's adventure, but they haven't yet explained it as the rats hiding inside the walls and peeking out. They described them as the rats hiding amongst the normal background rats that can be found in any sewer system.

All that aside....this conversation has veered so far from discussing psionics that it's not really adding anything to the conversation. A wizard hiding behind a wall in a crowded marketplace could just as easily cast Dominate Monster through a peephole and remain unnoticed so we are really discussing something unrelated to psionics and componentless casting when discussing the cranium rat scenario. With you definition of how hard it is to notice the rat swarm at all they could have been using V, S, and M casting components and the players still wouldn't have had a chance to notice them...because its just one rat squeaking and shuffling its little unseen rat hands.

I agree we really aren't adding anything to the conversation anymore.

 

[Maxperson]

The UA shows a thought, and one that was rejected. You still cannot use it to claim that they are going to say that Psions cannot be taught.

And, when I played Dark Sun, there were multiple monasteries full of psionic characters. A monastery functions like a school. New initiates are tuaght by older adepts and full fledged members.

The UA shows no such thing. They were very clear that it was the mechanics that were rejected. And I never said that Psionics could not be taught. I have no idea where you got that from. In fact, I was very clear that you could find the hermit in the cave at the top of Mt. Hardtofind and learn it.

1) We already discussed that the rules state that you gain exhaustion for not finishing a long rest. If you want to claim that gaining a mechanical penalty for lack of sleep should not be called sleep deprivation... that is on you. I'm talking from the rules.

The book only gives a single exhaustion level for some slight lack of sleep. It makes no mention of sleep deprivation. You can still get 6 hours of sleep, which is plenty.

2) I mentioned in that quote, which is only two sentences long, that you need to support their body with magic to prevent eventual death. Saying that you only gave them one level, then removed it, doesn't change my point. If you did not cast a healing spell on them every day, they would die from your action. This is like claiming you aren't starving a person because you injected Nutrient Paste into their system every few days so they don't die from the lack of food.

It doesn't matter if they would die if not for my action. If I give a prisoner water he is only living if not for my action. Are you going to claim that giving a prisoner water is torture?

So long as he is only slightly sleepy at the end of the day and then I'm making him nice and refreshed, as if he had a 7 course meal, that's not torture and it works.

Mens Rea is a cornerstone of the law. Saying "Criminals don't get to use that as an excuse" is purely ignorant of the concept. This is why there is a difference between the various degrees of murder and manslaughter. There are hundreds of instances of this in criminal and civil law. Just for an example, you cannot be charged with Bribery if you can demonstrate a lack of Mens Rea. The crime is literally impossible to commit, if you do not know what the crime is and what you are doing is considered that crime.

So a criminal knows if the group coming after him BS or not when the person shows up. That Psion is an evil criminal and he's going to know that some random group of farmers isn't going to make the claim that they are there to take him in. His claim of self-defense is a clear lie and since he knows that, his state of mind is one of guilt. This isn't the modern U.S. system, so we don't need a jury to prove that.

 

[Samloyal23]

I have yet to see a good argument against having a skill and feat based psionics system instead of a spell-based system. The proficiency system has been improved in 5E over 2E, systems like the Star Wars Force rules were balanced and easily expandable. A system like this would be integrated into the existing rules out of the box, aside from a telepathic combat system no new rules would be needed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I have yet to see a good argument against having a skill and feat based psionics system instead of a spell-based system. The proficiency system has been improved in 5E over 2E, systems like the Star Wars Force rules were balanced and easily expandable. A system like this would be integrated into the existing rules out of the box, aside from a telepathic combat system no new rules would be needed.

How would a "skill based psionic system" end up working differently than weapon attacks? Are we talking scaling successes, so that you get different effects depending on if your total is 15, 20, or 25?

How would that end up working for defenses? Would every monster need to be designed with a Psionic Defense stat, or would they make saves? How does making a save against your effect balance with having to roll for the effect in the first place?

I know you likely don't consider "Complex new mechanical system" a good argument against it. But, since the Psi Die was rejected in part for "having to learn a new system" your proposal would go in the exact opposite direction of the market research.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The UA shows no such thing. They were very clear that it was the mechanics that were rejected. And I never said that Psionics could not be taught. I have no idea where you got that from. In fact, I was very clear that you could find the hermit in the cave at the top of Mt. Hardtofind and learn it.

[/QUOTE]

If they can be taught, then there is no reason the Hermit can't make "School Mount Hardtofind" and teach classes down in the local monastery. Which means your entire point of "Psions don't have schools or colleges, so they are rare" again, without support.

Or maybe the Hermit doesn't like people, and won;t do that. But one of his students did.

The book only gives a single exhaustion level for some slight lack of sleep. It makes no mention of sleep deprivation. You can still get 6 hours of sleep, which is plenty.

[/QUOTE]

Not sure what else I would call "consistently depriving someone of adequate sleep, to the point of health problems" other than Sleep Deprivation. And the rules clearly tell us that Six hours of sleep is not plenty in the lands of DnD, because you will die from about a week of that. But, you don't seem to care about what the rules say, and instead want to insert your own interpretation, and I am done arguing this point.

It doesn't matter if they would die if not for my action. If I give a prisoner water he is only living if not for my action. Are you going to claim that giving a prisoner water is torture?

So long as he is only slightly sleepy at the end of the day and then I'm making him nice and refreshed, as if he had a 7 course meal, that's not torture and it works.

[/QUOTE]

Max you are twisting this around and contorting it, and it is not going to work for you.

No, giving a prisoner a glass of water is not torture. Intentionally depriving them of water for multiple days, to make them more pliable, until you need to give them a glass of water to keep them barely alive, is torture. Just because you heroically swoop in to make sure they don't die does not mean that your actions are moral.

And, "slightly sleepy" is a fun little euphemism you've started to create here. But, the exhaustion mechanic is not for "I'm a little worn out today". Especially since it can kill the individual. You are depriving them of sleep. Sleep Deprivation.

Edit: This also reminds me of the discussion from a while back about whether or not it was considered torture to cut the limbs off of a captive, if you plan on having them regenerated when you get back to the city. That was wrong. This is wrong.

So a criminal knows if the group coming after him BS or not when the person shows up. That Psion is an evil criminal and he's going to know that some random group of farmers isn't going to make the claim that they are there to take him in. His claim of self-defense is a clear lie and since he knows that, his state of mind is one of guilt. This isn't the modern U.S. system, so we don't need a jury to prove that.

Now we have determined that the Psion is evil, to justify their torture at our hands. A claim I have never once made. I said they might be a criminal, but that does not make a person evil.

And, even if they are evil, that is not an excuse for torture.

The Psion might have no way of knowing if the people who show up are bs'ing or not. And even if he knows that the heavily armed men and women aren't farmers (shocked gasp) they could be...

Slavers
Agents of Cult
Zealots from a Religious organization
Criminals (seperated from slavers because I am thinking more mobs ties)
Agents of a Corrupt and Evil Noble.

And that was just my fast list. Also, other than the last one, none of those people are legitimate authorities, yet all of them could claim to be. And the Noble reminds us that, even if you have the proper legal authority, that does not mean that you are the good guys or that the Psion is not in the right to resist.


After all, they are being transported by people who are trying to claim that torturing him is self defense. Clearly whatever moral and legal authority is at work, does not have high standards.


And, I'll remind you as well, part of this problem is not that the Psion is attacking them at every turn, but that they could. The arguments here will likely come up for pre-emptive torture of the captive, just to make sure that they are not a threat.

 

[Azzy]

I have yet to see a good argument against having a skill and feat based psionics system instead of a spell-based system.

On the other hand, I have yet to see a good argument for having a skill and feat based psionics system instead of a spell-based system.

The proficiency system has been improved in 5E over 2E, systems like the Star Wars Force rules were balanced and easily expandable. A system like this would be integrated into the existing rules out of the box, aside from a telepathic combat system no new rules would be needed.

The problem, though, is.... 1) In 5e, the skill system (such as there is one) doesn't have the granularity of the D20 skill system. 2) Feats in 5e, unlike in D20, are bigger, far fewer in number, compete with ASIs, and wholly optional. 3) Requires more work to balance it against other class features than simply working within the constraints of an existing game mechanic. 4) Requires tacking on a new rules subsystem instead of using an existing one, which also has the side effect of requiring players to learn a new system.

5e just isn't suited to a skill and feat system. Also, not all psionics fans (me, for instance) want such a system and actually prefer a system that is at least broadly similar to the existing mechanics for casters. Of all the takes on psionics for D&D that I've seen, I still prefer 3.5e's handling (which could easily be adapted to 5e—sans the psionic feats, those would have to turn into class/subclass features). Even if 5e defaults its psionics to using slots, that'd be fine since there's a rule for using spell points instead of slots that already exists in the DMG. As for psionic combat, please no—it has never been done well.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

On the other hand, I have yet to see a good argument for having a skill and feat based psionics system instead of a spell-based system.

If you are going to say that...

1. Psionics is different from spells

And

2. I'm bored with 5e and want something new

...are both not good arguments then I'm not sure what else is going to sway you.