Psionics: Psion and 211 powers converted from Pathfinder

[Xohar17]

Quick note: Astral Construct should be up to 1 hour like the other conjure spells. I had it there before, but it somehow got reverted.

The HP and damage values line up with the expected values of monsters based on Challenge rating. If you compare the 5th level astral construct to the Conjure Elemental spell you'll see they are quite similar:

Earth Elemental: Challenge 5, 126 HP, 17 AC, damage resistance to b/p/s from nonmagical. Does about 28 damage per turn if both hit.
Astral Construct (5th level): Challenge 5, 112 HP, 17 AC, condition immunities. Does about 28 damage per turn if both hit. Enhancements for either more damage or utility.

Beyond that I compared the astral construct at every possible power level. See Spell Balance. So by those numbers the 5th level Astral Construct is nearly identical to Conjure Elemental​.

Is there a specific level that you think is too strong?




The reason a psicrystal has more hp is fusion. Fusing with your crystal is a decent HP buff. Each familiar has unique and interesting features.
Most can make a small attack (probably for utility). A bat has echolocation and keen hearing, a cat has keen smell, a frog is amphibious and can leap far, an owl has flyby to deliver spells.

I'm not saying a psicrystal should 100% have the hp, but if I were to remove HP that would reduce the usage for fusion and I would need to add a different feature.

1) I think its specifically the fact that Astral construct is 1 action to manifest, while conjure elemental is 1 minute, hence, it is not designed to be used in the middle of combat, you have to plan ahead and cast it before. Also, if your concentration is broken the elemental turns hostile and attacks you, and continues for 1 hour, so the spell has those 2 strong drawbacks. With Astral construct there is no drawback, you can just cast it in the middle of combat at whatever level you desire and if your concentration is broken it just disappears and you are free to cast it again as soon as you have one action to spare, So the psion power is indeed better and much more versatile than conjure elementals. For comparison, conjure minor elementals doesn't have the drawback of the summoned creatures potentially turning against you, is a 4th level spell and at maximum lets you summon one elemental of CR2.

2)So THAT's the design reasoning behind that choice, intriguing......

 

[Stunning Serendipity]

Yes, I like the psi points version much better, even if it presents some challenges in presentation! Regarding the high level powers: I think level 6-8 are fine actually, but you really should not be able to manifest 6 9th-level powers in a day, since they are dramatically more powerful than 8th-level or lower. I would add a special exclusion just for powers costing 13 pp, and otherwise keep the scaling limit on 9pp+ powers.

Speaking of 9th level, something I came across while scanning the power list: timeless body says

For the duration your body ignores all effects. While timeless body is in effect, you are immune to all damage and automatically succeed on any ability check or saving throw.

Succeeding on any ability check (even ones that are not meant to resist grapples, et cetera) is probably not what was intended here. Also, the pathfinder version makes you immune to friendly effects as well, and only lasts until the end of your next turn. What's the goal of this power? As written it is too strong even for a 9th-level power.

 

[Kryx]

1) I think its specifically the fact that Astral construct is 1 action to manifest, while conjure elemental is 1 minute, hence, it is not designed to be used in the middle of combat, you have to plan ahead and cast it before. Also, if your concentration is broken the elemental turns hostile and attacks you, and continues for 1 hour, so the spell has those 2 strong drawbacks. With Astral construct there is no drawback, you can just cast it in the middle of combat at whatever level you desire and if your concentration is broken it just disappears and you are free to cast it again as soon as you have one action to spare, So the psion power is indeed better and much more versatile than conjure elementals. For comparison, conjure minor elementals doesn't have the drawback of the summoned creatures potentially turning against you, is a 4th level spell and at maximum lets you summon one elemental of CR2.

You're right, conjure spells are 1 minute. I will change the Astral Construct to match.

You're right that the elemental can turn hostile, but that's only true for the Conjure Elemental spell. Conjure Fey (6th level spell) summons friendly beasts of Challenge 6. With Conjure Fey I can summon a Mammoth.

Mammoth: Challenge 6, 126 HP, 13 AC. +10 to hit for either 25 or 29 damage. Prone if the Mammoth charges
Astral Construct (6th level): Challenge 6, 127 HP, 17 AC, condition immunities. +7 to hit for about 32 damage per turn if both hit. Enhancements for either more damage or utility.

Conjure Celestial is garbage and not worth using as a comparison. (7th level for a Challenge 4). It is mainly used for the spells.
Conjure Animals, Conjure Minor Elementals, and Conjure Woodland Beings are all trash when used to conjure the maximum challenge creatures. If you look at guides for these they always recommend abusing the lower level slots.

Conjure Animals (3rd), Conjure Minor Elementals (4th), and Conjure Woodland Beings (4th) can be used to add 1,000 XP to a combat (8 * CR 1/4 = 400 multiplied by 2.5 as they are a gang gives us 1,000)
Astral Construct (4th) can be used to add 1,100 XP to a combat.

Based on Conjure Elemental (ignoring the losing control as I'd say that is more rare) and Conjure Fey the current Power Level = Challenge is decently balanced. Even looking at it like that I wonder if the power could be used by all Psions and not just one archetype.
I did make the 8th and 9th level higher CRs as those level of powers are really really strong so it has to be slightly stronger by comparison (8th level astral is a CR 9 and 9th level astral is a CR 11).

Now, all of that said: I'm probably on the high end of the balance. Adding lots of HP soak and mediocre damage can have huge value. Especially with the utility granted by the enhancements. I could perhaps lower the challenge by 1. Thoughts?

2)So THAT's the design reasoning behind that choice, intriguing......

I altered Psicrystal to remove climb, increase flying speed, replaced blindsight with darkvision (fits more the golem style instead of animated armor. Psicrystal has a personality so it's more like a golem). I think the Psicrystal would be fine without the bonus HP for fusion. Fusion giving around 30 hp is a pretty bad buff anyways, so perhaps it isn't worth keeping that usage? Thoughts?

Yes, I like the psi points version much better, even if it presents some challenges in presentation!

Great! Thanks for the feedback. My player and I liked the straight psi points version more as well.

Regarding the high level powers: I think level 6-8 are fine actually, but you really should not be able to manifest 6 9th-level powers in a day, since they are dramatically more powerful than 8th-level or lower. I would add a special exclusion just for powers costing 13 pp, and otherwise keep the scaling limit on 9pp+ powers.

So, add exhaustion after the first power using 13 power points? Something like:

"Powers that you manifest using 9 or more psi points (6th-level and higher) are particularly taxing. You can use psi points to manifest one power using 9 or more psi points. You can't manifest another such power until you finish a long rest.

The number of powers you can manifest using 9 or more psi points increases to two when you reach 13th level, three when you reach 15th level, four when you reach 17th level, five when you reach 19th level, and six when you reach 20th level.

Powers that you manifest using 13 psi points (9th level) are especially taxing. For every additional power you manifest using 13 psi points, you gain a level of exhaustion."

Added the part in bold. The wording isn't 100% clear. Maybe you have a suggestion to clean it up?

Speaking of 9th level, something I came across while scanning the power list: timeless body says

For the duration your body ignores all effects. While timeless body is in effect, you are immune to all damage and automatically succeed on any ability check or saving throw.

Succeeding on any ability check (even ones that are not meant to resist grapples, et cetera) is probably not what was intended here. Also, the pathfinder version makes you immune to friendly effects as well, and only lasts until the end of your next turn. What's the goal of this power? As written it is too strong even for a 9th-level power.

According to Mind Over Everything: A Pathfinder Psion Handbook the Timeless Body power is pretty mediocre: "Timeless Body - Make yourself invulnerable for a round. Only you. Disable the thing that is attacking you and save more than just yourself."

I don't think it's too bad. It could be useful to prevent a sure death. Though I'm not sure it's even worth learning the power. The goal of the conversion was to maintain the flavor of the becoming invulnerable to damage and powers and buffing it so it lasts up to 1 minute instead of 1 round and buffing it so that you also cannot be pushed away, pushed prone, hit by a monster's ability that can stun you, but isn't a power/spell.

Why do you think it's too powerful? Would this actually be a power you choose over other powers? What situation would it be too strong for?
The main argument against would be the ability to walk through lava or utility type situations.

 

[Stunning Serendipity]

1) Exhaustion? I had not thought about exhaustion. Maybe you misread my 'exclusion' within the text? I think that since exhaustion can be removed with a 5th-level spell, it's still too much to allow more than one per long rest. So just Powers that you manifest using 13 psi points (9th level) are especially taxing. After manifesting such a power, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again.

On the other hand, I think the wording is clear enough for your version of it.

2) First, it allows you to succeed on ANY ability check, such as Charisma (Persuasion) checks ... that's not really intended. I would change the wording to: For the duration your body ignores all effects. While timeless body is in effect, you are immune to all damage. Moreover, you automatically succeed on any saving throw, you are immune to being grappled, knocked prone, and other forced changes to your position, and you become immune to the effects of all spells and powers. I hope I've caught all monster "special abilities" with this - I think they all allow a saving throw except for grapple-type attacks.

I think the difference between 1 round and 1 minute is quite extreme. Walking on lava isn't a problem in my book, this is a 9th-level power! But in combat, 1 round is just a short extension to your life. Trade 1 action and your only 9th-level power now to be able to have that action a round later, and a guarantee to still be alive then. Okay, that's not too great. But in this version, you now have 1 minute unbreakable (since you cannot lose concentration unless you choose to) invulnerability to everything. There's very few things you cannot absolutely destroy given 1 minute of time as a high-level manifester. So, I don't know. Make it shorter than 1 minute, but longer than 1 round? How about 3 rounds?

 

[Kryx]

1) Exhaustion? I had not thought about exhaustion. Maybe you misread my 'exclusion' within the text? I think that since exhaustion can be removed with a 5th-level spell, it's still too much to allow more than one per long rest. So just Powers that you manifest using 13 psi points (9th level) are especially taxing. After manifesting such a power, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again.

I did misread and assumed you were going along with @Xohar17's suggestion of exhaustion. I like the hard restriction version as well as, as you pointed out, exhaustion can be removed (though that does further the cost). I'll use your wording.

"Powers that you manifest using 9 or more psi points (6th-level and higher) are taxing. After manifesting such a power, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again. The number of powers you can manifest using 9 or more psi points before a long rest increases to two when you reach 13th level, three when you reach 15th level, four when you reach 17th level, five when you reach 19th level, and six when you reach 20th level.

Powers that you manifest using 13 psi points (9th level) are particularly taxing. After manifesting such a power, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again."

2) First, it allows you to succeed on ANY ability check, such as Charisma (Persuasion) checks ...
*snip*
I think the difference between 1 round and 1 minute is quite extreme. Walking on lava isn't a problem in my book, this is a 9th-level power! But in combat, 1 round is just a short extension to your life. Trade 1 action and spell slot now to be able to have that action a round later, and a guarantee to still be alive then. Okay, that's not too great. But in this version, you now have 1 minute unbreakable (since you cannot lose concentration unless you choose to) invulnerability to everything. There's very few things you cannot absolutely destroy given 1 minute of time as a high-level manifester. So, I don't know. Make it shorter than 1 minute, but longer than 1 round? How about 3 rounds?

Ah, right.... now I feel stupid. I didn't even process that you could manifest it and then continue to take actions in further rounds.
I have 2 suggestions:

1. Make it a reaction to taking damage, invulnerable to all the same things until start of next turn (like Mental Barrier or Intellect Fortress)
2. Make it require an action to gain the invulnerability every round
3. Make it last a few rounds

#3 doesn't have any precedent. There is no middle ground between 1 turn and 1 minute in 5e. #2 still isn't great. #1 is like a souped up Intellect Fortress, but works on all damage, not just powers and spells.

I'd lean toward #1. Though at that point I might as well add an augment to Intellect Fortress - probably at 7th or 8th level. Thoughts?

 

[Stunning Serendipity]

#1 as an augment sounds good. I would do it as a reaction "when you are subject to any effect", not just damage.

I went through the psion document more carefully. Disclaimer: since I really like this approach to the psion, I'm nitpicking in order to make it as good as possible.

* Typos in Power Mastery: "You must expend a psi points as normal." + Missing full stop at the end.
* Seer, The Third Eye: Is this supposed to refresh on a long rest, or short or long rest? It only says "rest".
* Seer, Clairtangent Hand: Should not count against number of talents known.
* Shaper and Egoist, Astral Construct and metamorphosis: There's actually no way to learn these powers without being a shaper or egoist. I suppose this is for eventual multiclassing-compatibility? Should probably state that these do not count against your maximum of powers known.
* Shaper, Ectoplasmic Protection: This is essentially encounter-length disadvantage on all attacks when you use metacreativity powers, which will probably happen quite often. I have a feeling that this is too strong. The fluff makes this seem since it would work more or less like Arcane Ward. Perhaps make the mechanics similar to Arcane Ward (with different numbers) instead?
* Kineticist, Overchannel. Typography: The damage seems to have 'l' instead of '1' in the second instance. Also, you should specify that this does not affect talents (part of the errata for the PHB evoker).
* Kineticist, Energetic Recharge: should specify that it's at 20th level.
* Nomad, Temporal Acceleration: Fine, by itself. Really dangerous for multiclassing, but that's perhaps not so important to consider.
* Nomad, Greater Temporal Acceleration: You can only use this once per round anyway, since it requires a reaction to use, so the restriction is unnecessary.
* Nomad, Temporal Shift: Really cool ability, but this needs some explanation. What happens to the creature while it is on the astral plane? This may need to be clarified. It does not age while it is there, only when it comes back. So this is a save or die for human-aged species, but more or less an inconvenience for elves. Okay, fine. What about other needs, does the creature need to eat, drink, sleep, defecate, et cetera for the time it is on the astral? If yes, then it kills anything that needs to eat. If not, does it follow story mechanics, as in: the creature is starving but alive when it comes back? Is it conscious during its stay? If yes, will it go mad from essentially being sensory-deprived, or at least stationary in a cloud of swirling colours, for decades? EDIT: Also, is the creature incapacitated while 'trapped', or can it take an action to free itself, e.g. by planeshifting?

 

[Yaarel]

Question on psi points for higher level powers. I added this wording yesterday:

I think tracking each individual slot level equivalent would be too much do I came up with the overall limit. It progresses at the same rate as spells, but all of them could be used for 9th level powers when a psion reached 17.
Is this a problem? Should I further restrict it? Should it not include the increases at 19 and 20?

I am looking at the same problem in the context of a Wizard using points for high-level spell slots.



A solution that I am leaning toward is:

• At level 11 (the master tier), the caster can only cast one spell of 9 points or higher, per *short* rest.
• At level 17 (the legend tier), the caster can cast up to two spells of 9 points or higher, per short rest.

It seems this method should be safe for balance. It is a bit rough. While only one high-point spell is available at a time, multiple short rests allow several castings per day. But the simplicity seems worth it.

At the highest tier, the caster can cast two 13-point spells, per short rest. However, access to the rest of the high level spells, 9-, 10-, and 11-point spells, also become unavailable until the next short rest.

 

[Kryx]

I'll do it an an augment to intellect fortress then.

Great to hear you like the system and class - definitely nit pick away! I've spent quite a bit of time on this so I would like to make it as good as possible as well!

• Fixed Power Mastery typo
• Third eye is the same wording as a Divination Wizard's Third Eye. Based on the previous sentence I believe it is implying a short or long rest (when the feature ends). I'll add that.
• Clairtangent Hand doesn't count against the number known, I'll add that. Added it for Minor Ectoplasmic Object as well
• Shaper and Egoist, Astral Construct and metamorphosis: I'm not 100% sure what to do with these. Based on the discussion I had earlier an astral construct could probably be given to all psions if I reduce the number of enhancements and slightly lower the CR like I probably should anyways. I'd like Metamorphosis to be available to all, but it breaks the 5e paradigm of 1 concentration spell by grouping a bunch together so I'm a bit wary. Though in the end using concentration to fly, dash as a bonus, and get +2 isn't the end of the world as it would cost 7 psi points to do so (5th level equivalent).
• Ectoplasmic Protection: Ya, I wanted to keep it disadvantage so it's similar to concealing amorpha, but you're probably right that the Arcane Ward model is probably better. Plus that way it'll stack with Concealing Amorpha
• Fixed typo. I couldn't figure out good wording for "7 or less, but above 0. In other cases I just say "If you expend psi points" which talents don't, but this needs the 7 or less wording. I added "This does not benefit talents."
• Added 20th level to Energetic Recharge
• Temporal Acceleration is the same as Action surge. There is definitely some danger in 1 level dips for both Psion and Sorcerer as they have some nice features to steal. I don't think that can quite be avoided without making things like cantrip choices come at 2nd level which feels wrong. Sorcerer for example can pickup Draconic Resilience (resistance to 1 damage type and 13 + dex AC) or tides of Chaos (gain advantage on a saving throw or attack - really undervalued). Cleric has similar concerns like Life domain 1 for heavy armor and amazing goodberries for druids. Or heavy armor and wrath of the storm which is like a free hellish rebuke. Or heavy armor and attack as a bonus wis mod times per day.
  If you think I should move Psion Discipline back to level 2 it's possible, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives. Thoughts?
• The restriction on using Greater Temporal Acceleration once per turn comes from Action Surge so apparently it could be used more than once per turn if I didn't have that wording.
• I will need to add some explanation to this feature. Up to 100 years is probably too much, even for a 20th level feature. Perhaps 2 years per round is better (max 20). I meant it as more of a "they age a lot", but perhaps it's easier to say that instead of having to worry about food, sanity, and predators. On the other hand those all give the creature an experience which changes them which I think is part of the idea. If you have suggestions for how to word the affects of the Astral Plane experience I'm all ears.

Thanks for proofreading - let me know if you find any others.

• At level 11 (the master tier), the caster can only cast one spell of 9 points or higher, per *short* rest.

This option would render the psion only able to cast 1 6th, 7th, or 8th power per short rest. That is not the intention. 3 6th or 3 7th or 3 8th really makes no huge difference as the real powerhouses are 9th level powers or powers augmented to 9th level. And if they decide to manifest 3 8th level powers that's 11 points each or 33 points total - that's 1/4 of their whole daily budget.

 

[The Jenneral]

#3 doesn't have any precedent. There is no middle ground between 1 turn and 1 minute in 5e.

Off the top of my head, Time Stop lasts 1d4+1 rounds. That's a decent middle ground, I think.

 

[Stunning Serendipity]

• Temporal Acceleration is the same as Action surge. There is definitely some danger in 1 level dips for both Psion and Sorcerer as they have some nice features to steal. I don't think that can quite be avoided without making things like cantrip choices come at 2nd level which feels wrong. Sorcerer for example can pickup Draconic Resilience (resistance to 1 damage type and 13 + dex AC) or tides of Chaos (gain advantage on a saving throw or attack - really undervalued). Cleric has similar concerns like Life domain 1 for heavy armor and amazing goodberries for druids. Or heavy armor and wrath of the storm which is like a free hellish rebuke. Or heavy armor and attack as a bonus wis mod times per day.
  If you think I should move Psion Discipline back to level 2 it's possible, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives. Thoughts?

I wouldn't move it, and I personally (usually) don't allow dipping into flavour-heavy classes like psion anyway, so I don't care all that much. In the end, level 1 or level 2 does not make a huge difference in my book, since for me the game starts at 3 anyway .

• The restriction on using Greater Temporal Acceleration once per turn comes from Action Surge so apparently it could be used more than once per turn if I didn't have that wording.

Oh, I misread what Temporal Acceleration was. Nevermind my previous comment.

• I will need to add some explanation to this feature. Up to 100 years is probably too much, even for a 20th level feature. Perhaps 2 years per round is better (max 20). I meant it as more of a "they age a lot", but perhaps it's easier to say that instead of having to worry about food, sanity, and predators. On the other hand those all give the creature an experience which changes them which I think is part of the idea. If you have suggestions for how to word the affects of the Astral Plane experience I'm all ears.

I don't know, this is hard to say. But 'they age a lot' is a feature that is somehow meaningless to many creatures, but devastating for others. The other stuff just popped into my head since I was thinking about the consequences of being trapped in a bubble on the Astral Plane. As a 20th-level feature, this will not come into play often, but it still should have a defined effect. And in my book, being trapped with nothing to do - perhaps not even a way to move - for 20 years would drive most people insane. The easiest way of saying this would just be: they are trapped, unconscious, protected from all harm, and simply come out aged. That's just weird since it affects different species in completely different ways.