Psionics Save DCs

[Capellan]

I recently got the Psionics Handbook. I like it quite a lot, but there was one aspect I wanted to get some feedback on from those who had already played with Psionic characters in their game ...

The standard save DC for a psionic power is:

d20 + ability mod + power level

I find the idea of a variable DC interesting (particularly for the fact that it is different from the standard for magic), but I wondered how people found it in play? Does it create a significant power differential between Psionicists and magic-using classes?

I was considering changing the DC to:

10 + ability mod + power level + (d20 roll on the ability table)

eg 2nd level power, ability mod of +1 and d20 roll of "14" would result in a DC of 15 (10 + 1 + 2 +2).

Does anyone have any comments/observations from their own games?

 

[Dr_Rictus]

On the one hand, as has been observed, any increase in randomness tends to favor the NPC's. In practice, I don't rely too heavily on getting past saving throws with my psion PC, because you just can't count on it as much. This causes me to lean towards utility powers over direct attacks, which is a good idea anyway because if I wanted to be an artillery piece I'd have played a sorcerer. Please see any of a million other threads on that subject before you derail this one.

On the other hand, since psions can afford a lot of retries with their low-level powers (if time allows, of course), it can increase the chances of getting them through sometimes.

 

[dvvega]

Originally the d20 system was supposed to use d20 rolls everywhere (AFAIK - perhaps a bit of Rolemaster creeping into Monte's design).

Even armour class was to be done like that (c.f. variant rule in DMG for Defense rolls). A lot of mechanics were converted to "Taking 10".

Everyone is assumed to "Take 10" on defense and so the base AC is 10.

All spellcasters are assumed to "Take 10" on their spell casting so the base save is 10+ability mod+spell level.

Psionics is the same deal. If you don't like the randomness then just rule base 10+ability mod+power level. There is no other randomness required. The only place this will suck 100% of the time is a psionic attack mode against a non-psionic creature. With the +8 buffer they have on most attacks, the d20 roll could make it difficult to save.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Psion damage powers stink anyways. Take Whitefire, for example. Same range and spread as a Fireball. Same level. Same in every way but damage.

Whitefire: 5d4
Fireball: minimum 5d6, maximum 10d6
So, if my caster level is 10 or more, Fireball does 3 times as much damage as Whitefire.

Psions get some GREAT utility powers. They also get divinations and charm spells at lower levels than Wizards do (Charm Monster at 3!). But, if you're using offensive powers requiring a save, you're probably hosed anyway.
Most Psions won't have as high of a prime stat as Wizards would, simply because you have to spread out your points a bit if you want powers from other disciplines. I've got a Shaper, for example, but he wanted to be able to Teleport (DEX 15), Polymorph Self (STR 14), and Inertial Barrier (CON 14). That doesn't leave a lot of room for him to pump up his INT; if he drops some of those other stats, the spell list gets really thin. So, instead of trying to be an offensive powerhouse (no need, there's a Sorcerer in the group) I spread the stats around and load up on utility powers.

The trick is, find powers that avoid this altogether. For example, Mass Cocoon (level 7, INT). Great power. As long as the target can fit into a 10' cube, it's effectively Held for 2 hours per level, no saving throw, no SR. Someone inside can't use verbal or somatic components, and ethereal travel is blocked. The cocoon has hardness 25 and 100 HP so it's really tough to cut through (and the person inside isn't the one doing the cutting), and can't be dispelled. It can even hit multiple targets at once. The downside is, they have to be in Close range.
Sure, a dragon will be too big for this, but most outsiders or humanoid NPCs will fit just fine. If your DM likes throwing one insanely-powerful guy at you, this can sometimes stop them cold.
"Now you will feel the wrath of"...ZAP..."mmmffff" "Anyone want to Coup de Grace him, or should I?"

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It's next to impossible to CdG someone in a Mass Cocoon. The cocoon absorbs any and all damage coming their way, such as that dealt by a barbarian's axe, a rogue's rapier, etc. See the messageboard at www.montecook.com for more details.

Basically, you have to pour acid inside to kill the victim. It's supposed to incapacitate, not kill, the opponent. That's why there's no save. (It's basically Forcecage).

 

[Spatzimaus]

Sorry, I phrased that badly. I didn't mean a literal "Coup de Grace" (PHB term), I meant a more generic "coup de grace", i.e., some powerful attack intended to finish off a more-or-less-helpless opponent.

Nothing in the power description says you can't target the person inside, from what I see; it seems to be phrased in a way to discourage weapon attacks on the person (they hit the cocoon instead? Or does it act like stoneskin, where the first 25 damage hits the cocoon and any excess hits the person?), but it's not really clear that you can't reach the person inside in other ways.
For example, I could reach in, touch the person, and Teleport to get them out. Of course, if I can do that, I can Harm him too.

I mean think of it; you can still manifest psionic powers while cocooned, so if it prevented all attacks from hitting the person inside, why wouldn't I just cocoon MYSELF? Instant DR 25/-, immunity to ethereal attacks, and you can't hit me with spells?

And no offense to Monte Cook if he's reading this, but I don't really trust him on matters relating to game balance. His ranger and his reworkings of the PsiHB prestige classes are horribly overpowered IMHO.

 

[Stalker0]

I've played with psionics a fair amount in the games I play.

One thing that has always made me angry about spells in 3rd edition is that at some point certain spells just become flat out useless. Once their saves get so high, characters become virutally immune to certain spells whcih I don't like.

Hence, I think the randomization for psionics is great, and it works out that sometimes it makes a weaker power VERY kick ass when it has like a 30 dc, but other times you throw a wasted spell.

Also, if your playing a psion, my advice is to seriously look into metapsionic feats. With crystal capacitors and the like, metapsioincs don't hurt nearly as much as metamagics in terms of draining you, and they can make your abilites quite powerful.

 

[Capellan]

Thanks for your feedback, all. I think I shall give the Rules As Written a try and see how they go.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The author of the Psionics Handbook has clarified Mass Concussion here: http://pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm18.showMessage?topicID=178.topic

Also see the Psionics FAQ here: http://pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm18.showMessage?topicID=79.topic

 

[Spatzimaus]

That thread is useful reading, but it still doesn't solve the basic problem. Someone in a mass cocoon can't speak (so no verbal components), can't see, can't move (no somatic components), but can still use Psionics and can still breathe. This much was explicit.

But, if a person inside the cocoon can't be hit by spells and/or weapons, why wouldn't I just cocoon myself as a defensive measure? Okay, sure, I want to be able to see, but using a Psicrystal to spot (or a friend with Sense Link) would work as well. Or, think of it a different way; an innocent is being attacked by the bad guys, and I can't stop them all in time; instead, cocoon the innocent. Instant invulnerability! And if I catch a few baddies in the area, even better.

And wouldn't it be really easy to choke the person to death by plugging up their airholes? Sure it'd take a little work, so you wouldn't do it during combat, but the spell lasts DAYS.

So, how do weapon attacks against a person inside work? Can the person inside be affected by damage spells, either directly or by being caught in an AE spell? Cocoon yourself right before your friend Fireballs...