Psionics Too Psi-Fi?

[Hussar]

Well, the thing is, you realize the Iron Golem has elements of Sci-fi?

It can basically be considered a robot.

But, and this is the issue, would you be happy if the Iron Golem entry in the monster manual was renamed "Combat Droid"?

There's a reason they're called Warforged and not Robot, even though, essentially, they are exactly the same thing.

Naming is very important. Heck, look at all the hoopla about portmanteaus in 4e. People care about the names. The names are a big window into the feel of the game. Renaming "Wand of Light" to "Flashlight" or "Maglight" would not sit well with most gamers.

Psionics is an SF trope. Not that the ideas can't be ported into fantasy, they certainly can. But, when they are, the name has to change as well. Even the Weird Tales type pulp fiction didn't present mental powers as science. The Karnaki stories of William Hope Hodgson (great stories btw) are less fantasy and more SF/Horror. His Tsar Wars series (it's a rename) is very strongly SF, even though the science is totally bogus.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

As I understand the history, the term "psionics" was coined by John W Campbell (you know, perhaps the most influential editor in sci-fi history, for whom the Campbell awards are named). It is a combination of "psi" (which was a term being used by scientists investigating paranormal phenomena) and "electronics".

The idea was that "psionics" was where psychic powers became understood, and made regular and predictable like electronics - just more circuitry, this time in the brain. Psionics is what you have when the supernatural ceases to be supernatural, because it is explained by science and understood, and is then perhaps rare, but thoroughly natural.

Ah, it makes more sense now. I still think it's a stupid kind of power, but at least it makes sense why it got rationalized in the first place.

Also I must thank you for this in post form rather than being able to give Experience.

 

[Umbran]

No. Bringing a statue to life has nothing to do with robots or sci-fi. Is Pinocchio a sci-fi story about a robot? Is Pygmalion?

No, but then consider the flesh golem - Mary Shelley's Frankenstien: The Modern Prometheus is pretty clearly a what-if science story, not a fantasy.

 

[Desdichado]

Yes, it is often given credit as being one (if not the) first science fiction stories ever written.

That still doesn't make iron golems into robots, though. The golem was an old folkloric tradition long before Mary Shelley came along. Although the clay golem is the only truly folkloric based golem. The rest of them are just extrapolation of the same concept to other materials.

Flesh golem aside, who doesn't really fit quite as well into that paradigm.

 

[tomBitonti]

I'm thinking the flavor was deliberate. (And actually toned down relative to the original powers. Probability travel anyone?) The whole terminology reeks of a more scientific and modern flavor: Psychoportation, Telekinesis, Id Insinuation, Reality Revision?, plus probably more that I am not remembering.

But to each his own. Psionics was always optional (at least until 4E, where I'm not sure where it stands).

Thx!

T

 

[Dausuul]

No, but then consider the flesh golem - Mary Shelley's Frankenstien: The Modern Prometheus is pretty clearly a what-if science story, not a fantasy.

And it's not called a flesh golem in Frankenstein, is it?

I don't much like flesh golems--if you want monsters made out of animated dead flesh by insane wizards, that's what undead are for--but as far as terminology goes, it's acceptable.

 

[tomBitonti]

Golem may not be the best examplar. Lots of historical and fantasy elements to them:

From Online Etymology Dictionary

"artificial man, automaton," 1897, from Heb. golem [Psalm cxxxix:16] "shapeless mass, embryo," from galam "he wrapped up, folded."

And lots more at Golem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thx!

T

 

[Umbran]

That still doesn't make iron golems into robots, though.

I think the point was that even if you set psionics aside, the game is by no means devoid of sci-fi elements. I'll grant you that animated statues aren't particularly sci-fi - he chose a poor example. But the flesh golem is pretty clearly a sci-fi element with the serial numbers scraped off.

 

[Dr Simon]

Maybe the issue is the serial numbers aren't very well filed off when it comes to psionics?

I'm quite happy mixing psionics into fantasy, although I've taken the approach in my campaign that they are simply a different discipline of magic (see Way of Six Energies).

But in game terms, if we're talking 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook, for my tastes they aren't really different enough. In one PbP I'm running on these boards there's a psion and a sorcerer character. The sorcerer has just cast shield, the psion has just manifested inertial armour - the game effects are almost identical (except the psion gets a much greater duration for less investment of resources). For my money, too many of the psionic powers are simple re-dressing of effects already produced by the standard magic system, making the XPH more of a points-based magic system than a hugely new addition to the game.

Compare the XPH stuff to, say 2nd Edition Babylon 5 RPG where the telepathy rules are quite well geared to a more SF type of telepathy, of the kind of mostly hard SF with a hint of space fantasy typical of B5. Still d20, but without any D&D legacy baggage.

 

[Desdichado]

But in game terms, if we're talking 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook, for my tastes they aren't really different enough. In one PbP I'm running on these boards there's a psion and a sorcerer character. The sorcerer has just cast shield, the psion has just manifested inertial armour - the game effects are almost identical (except the psion gets a much greater duration for less investment of resources). For my money, too many of the psionic powers are simple re-dressing of effects already produced by the standard magic system, making the XPH more of a points-based magic system than a hugely new addition to the game.

I actually think it's the reverse problem; magic has become too all encompassing in D&D, edging out any room for psionics. When things like telepathy and whatnot can be done via easily available low level spells (to use one obvious example) it's a bit hard to make psionics and magic feel very different.

When your design goals are to "weaponize" the systems; make them useful for a game that's primarily designed around combat resolution---that goes even further toward causing them to converge.